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Bart Archer
Novice
Posts:3
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| 09/20/2006 9:50 PM |
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Frist let me clarify that I was in fact talking to TBA, it is you and others like you who have ruined several other organizations that I have been involved with and I am glad that you openly admit youre goals. Have at it, you will not deter me or mine from our hobby. For the record I am still using glass until my steel blade gets here. For me cost is not the deciding point. I will also continue to study and improve whether you approve or not. I hope someday that we will meet face to face so that I can turn my back and ignore you in person. Simply put you are not worth the effort.
To Severn
Perhalps you should look at youre perveous shire and speak to some of the people who no longer participate there for youre answers. |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/20/2006 10:54 PM |
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Ramon, I did say it takes time to build up muscle. Please note I have a degree in Recreational Leadership & Fitness. I have taught fitness for over 10 years, so I am well aware of how to incorporate fitness into rapier.
We do push ups, sit ups and medicine ball drills, plus jogging, I go over stretches and warm ups.
But I can not force any kind of fitness level on the students outside of class, what they do they do by their own desire.
Regardless there are still going to be newcomers, beginners and people with old sports injuries, that can not hold a steel blade for the length of time required. It is a sound point regardless. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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MollyModine
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Posts:134
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| 09/20/2006 11:04 PM |
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Posted By TdB on 09-20-2006 8:02 AM He's talking to me  And should the day come when all the whiners take their cheap plastic swords and go home to cry into their beer about how rude and elitist I am, I'll have the same people to play with that I do now, plus those who see that we actually take the art seriously and join to learn. You see Bart, there is no ego boost in beating incompetents. You're just speedbumps, to steal a phrase from Simone; the people I have to roll over for the first few rounds of a tournament until I get to the worthwhile fights. I get my thrills fighting people who take the game seriously and are damned good at it. You don't get an adrenaline rush from stepping on an ant. I fully support the SCA's inclusiveness. Many of the bigger population centers have WMA groups for people who take the art seriously. The SCA fills in the gaps. People who want to play rapier "just for fun" (ie, poorly) as part of their socializing in the SCA are welcome to do so. I just want them playing the same game the rest of us are, with steel simulators. Since I do play with the SCA, I'd rather the organization not be a laughing stock. Cheers, TdB (hoping I've managed to fit the "evil elitist bastard" mold you've created).
Ouch Thore (TdB) that was quite a virtual slap, difficult for me to read as I know another side of you a bit. One thing about these speed bumps, they are duellists who are LEARNING and BECOMING better fighters who in time can definately become a challenge and a worthwhile fight.
You once were new to the sport, like ALL of us. So maybe just be a bit more easier on the newcomers okay? I'm working with these people to make them into winners, not just speedbumps. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/20/2006 11:25 PM |
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Posted By Bart Archer on 09-20-2006 9:50 PM
Frist let me clarify that I was in fact talking to TBA, it is you and others like you who have ruined several other organizations that I have been involved with and I am glad that you openly admit youre goals. Have at it, you will not deter me or mine from our hobby. For the record I am still using glass until my steel blade gets here. For me cost is not the deciding point. I will also continue to study and improve whether you approve or not. I hope someday that we will meet face to face so that I can turn my back and ignore you in person. Simply put you are not worth the effort.
To Severn
Perhalps you should look at youre perveous shire and speak to some of the people who no longer participate there for youre answers.
*SIGHS* Okay first let me apologize to Thore and Sevrin for Bart's words of frustration.
As some people know, Bart is very new to the SCA and has come into our shire and rapier practices with his family and has been fronted with a lot of difficult situations and ugly politics. And for that I am sorry for on everyone's part who has been involved both directly and indirectly. There are no easy answers here and many hard feelings because of it.
I apologize that Bart vented some of these feelings and frustrations on the Kingdom list, being new to the SCA he is unaware of the chain of command to follow for grievances and he is only doing what he felt he needed to say.
But ... it's because of these frustrations that I now hold non-SCA rapier practices, so that me and my students can learn with fun and friendship. This is not how I want things to be, but that is how they are for the time being. My practices are my own doing, they are insured, and taught in the fashion of Prospere's teachings at AD.
End of discussion. If someone wants to further this, please contact me privately.
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 09/20/2006 11:48 PM |
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Posted By Bart Archer on 09-20-2006 9:50 PM
To Severn
Perhalps you should look at youre perveous shire and speak to some of the people who no longer participate there for youre answers.
It's Sevrin actually. And no, Bart, you don't get to weasle out of it that easy. When you make vague accusations on a public list, you'd better be able to back them up.
First, you know jack-sh*t about my "perveous shire", being you've only been around the edge of the SCA in the South Okanagan for a matter of a few months, have never attended a shire meeting, and only a handful of official shire practices. All you're doing is parroting a comment made by another member in anger who also has had no experience in my "perveous shire".
You and your family were welcomed into Appledore. My Ladywife and others spent a very long hot day making garb for your children. Myself and other members of the Rapier community have gone out of our way to encourage and instruct your son in his growing passion for Rapier. Our Chatelaine and other members of our shire have done everything in their power to make you feel welcome even after your negative and uninformed comments on the shire email list. And what is your response? To help create and exacerbate a conflict with the Marshalate in Appledore and the area that is based on sheer ignorance on how the SCA operates.
I see that while I am writing this, Molly has attempted to quiet the waters, and though I appreciate the motives behind her post, it is you, Bart who are accountable for your words and actions. You're the one who made the accusation that "large number of particpants in SCA events in this area" have been driven out by some sinister force in Appledore. So, put up or shut up; What events have you attended in Appledore where people were made to feel unwelcome? Because to the best of my knowledge, you've never even been to an Appledore event.
And FYI - His name is Thore, not TBA. If you're going to vilify a man, at least have the common courtesy to get his name right. |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 09/20/2006 11:49 PM |
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Posted By MollyModine on 09-20-2006 10:54 PM
But I can not force any kind of fitness level on the students outside of class, what they do they do by their own desire.
Regardless there are still going to be newcomers, beginners and people with old sports injuries, that can not hold a steel blade for the length of time required. It is a sound point regardless.
I must speak frankly about this. We design the rules to be as inclusive as possible while trying to attain all possible goals of the rapier community. That being said, we cannot design rules specifically for people not willing to build up the strength to handle a rapier outside of pratice. Building up this muscle mass is not difficult, and can often be accomplished in the first month or so of rapier play. Pushups and most strength training exercises will not help with this. It's forearm muscles, which are rarely used in everyday life, that invariably fail first while fighting. A weighted hockey stick pointed at a television until the muscle fails easily simulates a practice situation. If the student repeats until sufficient muscle mass is built, it will rarely take more than a month. If a person has an injury which leaves them unable to hold up a weapon, despite training, then I'm sorry but perhaps this game is not for them.
My main point is this. Even if students are having difficulty adopting to a steel blade, using fiberglass in practice will not help solve the problem. If a student plans on ever moving beyond practice, they will have to pick up steel eventually. It is to their benefit that they start as early as possible with it so their muscles learn the maneuvers with weight in hand and can adapt as early as possible. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 09/20/2006 11:59 PM |
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Posted By TdB on 09-20-2006 8:02 AM
You see Bart, there is no ego boost in beating incompetents. You're just speedbumps, to steal a phrase from Simone; the people I have to roll over for the first few rounds of a tournament until I get to the worthwhile fights. I get my thrills fighting people who take the game seriously and are damned good at it. You don't get an adrenaline rush from stepping on an ant.
Cheers,
TdB
(hoping I've managed to fit the "evil elitist bastard" mold you've created).
I agree with all of your post, even this little tidbit, which I think might derail this thread a bit. However, I do want to make a quick comment.
You're right, there is little thrill in beating up on new people. There is of course the thrill that's always there whenever I pick up a blade and play the game I love, but it doesn't compare to when I'm fighting the best of the best. In interactions with newer people, the thrill for me comes from taking them aside and showing them some of how I beat them, training the bad habits out of them, and having them come and fight me on a more level playing field the next year.
To use your analogy, the thrill comes when you help the ant play in radioactive goo so he becomes a super ant and rages about the field eating up all the Thores and Guillemins in the future. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/20/2006 11:59 PM |
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Sevrin
Yes I am trying to calm the waters, and while Bart was wrong in voicing his comments, so are you by adding your voice to them. Two wrongs do not make a right. And at this point I would 'ask' both of you to back off the airing dirty laundry in public as your lady wife says Sevrin. Of course I can only 'ask' this of you both, not demand.
Also Sevrin, since you have forgotten Bart attended the recent Summerland Demo and his first official SCA event was Feast of Fellowship this past year.
So please boys, back to your corners, or try to breathe and relax, or go fight with each other offline. Please note discussing this further on this list would be a serious faux-pa on both sides, as I'm sure you already know Sevrin. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/21/2006 12:05 AM |
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Guillemin I like your comment about interactions with new people in rapier.
It falls in line with something Prospere said to me at May Crown this past year. "Everyone has something to give and teach, everyone ... even the new people. So remember that when you fight with each and every person. What did they teach you?"
At first I had difficulty getting my head around the deepness of those words, but then I understood what Prospere meant, it has changed a lot of things for me inregards to rapier.
Just some late night thoughts. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 09/21/2006 12:17 AM |
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Posted By MollyModine on 09-21-2006 12:05 AM
It falls in line with something Prospere said to me at May Crown this past year. "Everyone has something to give and teach, everyone ... even the new people. So remember that when you fight with each and every person. What did they teach you?"
A lot like what this amazing Don I met from Atlantia (Don Conor something-or-other, the Gypsy Don) said to me after I finished fighting him. Before we even chatted about the set the first thing he said was "What did I do wrong?" I, of course, stuttered something about nothing at all, that his game was one of the best I'd ever seen. He replied that we all have something to learn, and thanked me for helping him in that.
Funny how great minds think alike...
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Mat
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Draven
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 09/21/2006 11:12 AM |
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I was once the "lowest common denominator," and at one time most of us were. The full banning of fibreglasss will limit the potential that exists for the future which is the fighters that currently fight fibreglass and the future of rapier (2-7 years from now). I try to look at the future in terms of the outlook of seven generations ahead. Most of what I'm hearing are fighters that are speaking to their own personal experience in wanting to change the game in terms of while they are here and able to fight. What happens when they leave? What an impact to make, and then move on to something that is akin to their beliefs while poisoning a fine organization. I have seen it happen personally in my professional and organizational experience.
Exclusiveness leads to a like minded nature amongst a group that will eventually degrade over time. This will occur overtime till the sandbox becomes this large empy pit with the individuals grasping all their toys. There are other groups that promote exclusiveness and that is fine for those groups, they will never reach the level of populace that the SCA enjoys due to their nature. We are an open minded society overall, and welcome all types of people. It is the few that are outspoken and are in the minority in the opinion of this matter.
I would vote for limiting fibreglass to a practice only implement. I might add at least there is a compromise coming from the pro-fibreglass movement. In any discussion or negotiation there has to be that - a compromise or willingness to listen. A full ban is not feasible without the short-term and long-term effects that are being brought forward. If it is practice only you will never see them in tournaments, so what's the problem? |
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Draven Mac Raith
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion |
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welder
Provost
Posts:95
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| 09/21/2006 11:38 AM |
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As someone with a strong claim to the "evil elitist bastard" title, I'd suggest that there is a place for fibreglass rapiers in some very basic training. The problem is that as loaners they may actually be a false economy, depending on the dynamics of a particular practice or class. The initial cost of a loaner blade, while a factor, is less important in the long run than the cost-per-use.
I don't think I've seen anyone seriously argue that fibreglass is a reasonable alternative to steel in bouting. I can't speak to safety issues, but it sounds as if we're all in agreement that the physical properties of fireglass are different enough to relegate it to training only. Because of this, I would suggest that to teach students about blade engagement and advantage using fiberglass is to do them a disservice, since they are essentially training to the wrong inputs. Therefore, fibreglass is really only useful for drills that don't emphasize blade contact. Such drills are useful and, depending on the instructor, enough to occupy a student for weeks or months. After that time, however, students will need to transition to steel in order to gain an appropriate feel for engagement, and the fiberglass rapier either sits in a bag or is passed to a new(er) student.
For classes that have a high number of novice students at any given time, it makes economic sense to have two pools of loaner swords: one set of inexpensive simulators that are restricted to those in their first month or two, and a second of steel rapiers for students who have moved on to steel but not yet bought their own blades. On the other hand, a smaller group without such a high influx is probably better off maintaining a single pool of steel blades which can be used by both groups. The up-front cost is higher, but the per-user cost of a fibreglass blade that goes unused because there are no novices to use it is much higher than for a steel sword that sees use at every practice. Add to this the opportunity cost of the more advanced student who does not have a blade suitable to the techniques he wants to learn, and steel doesn't look so uneconomical for small groups in the long run.
All this is, of course, predicated on the "fibreglass is unsuitable for teaching engagement" premise, which I don't expect to be a universal opinion. But if you start replacing "engagement" with the names of increasingly advanced techniques I suspect that everyone will eventually find the point at which they agree with the sentiment. That point is where a student's transition to steel must happen, and rereading this post with that in mind will offer some perspective on whether fibreglass makes sense in your context.
And, yes, I recognize the irony that by my logic larger and more active groups, for whom it makes economic sense to use fibreglass, may also be better able to afford steel blades because of their size. I don' make dese rules, man, I jes' points 'em out.
-William
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TdB
Free Scholar
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| 09/21/2006 11:56 AM |
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I think that the vocal minority is the 'pro-fibreglass' crowd. Once you get away from the interior of B.C., fibreglass blades are few and far between, and the use of them has been diminishing at a steady pace.
Draven, you seem to see this as a few elitists trying to suppress a populist movement that embraces easy access to the game. I see this as trying to bring isolated holdouts into the modern game. Can you honestly say that you see fibreglass swords as the future of rapier in the SCA? Of course not. So let's not play with straw men - preserving fibreglass in an isolated enclave isn't beneficial to them or to the game as a whole.
Completing the move away from fibreglass is doing a service to the people who are currently using them. They move from an unrealistic simulator that's not accepted anywhere else, to a realistic simulator that's universally accepted. Right now, they're doing themselves a disservice by trying to play at swords with simulators that don't work properly.
There are times I'd like to say "fine, keep your plastic swords, stay isolated and out of touch, constrain your ability to learn. You don't concern me." If I didn't care about the health of the entire community, that would be my position. However, I would like to see everyone playing the same game, with the same opportunities, so I persist in the attempt to bring the holdouts into the fold.
If it turns out that "fibreglass for practice only" is what comes down, then so be it. I don't see that as a step forward - I see it as further limiting the participation of those people who use fibreglass, instead of drawing them into the mainstream. I think that in the long run, enforcing a move to steel is the more inclusive move.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/21/2006 3:24 PM |
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William (may I call you William? I did buy your book so I hope you will forgive the familiarity  ) I think your last post puts a fine edge on the issues and clarifies positions nicely.
To clarify my own position - fibreglass sucks. But I need something for new comers to drill with at the lionsgate practice. As you say, once I figure they won't drive my blade into the ground, I loan them one of my steel simulators. The move to steel is almost invariably a quick one once they get a taste for it and have some skills at using it. And in this fashion my steel (or the practice's steel) has a longer life and yet we still manage to hook new fish :-)
This debate (minus the private flame wars) has taken a positive turn and I'm pleased to see that the community, even those who are adamant in their feelings (which I assure you I respect), can show flexibility. Yay for us!
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 09/21/2006 3:35 PM |
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Posted By MollyModine on 09-20-2006 10:54 PM
Ramon, I did say it takes time to build up muscle. Please note I have a degree in Recreational Leadership & Fitness. I have taught fitness for over 10 years, so I am well aware of how to incorporate fitness into rapier.
We do push ups, sit ups and medicine ball drills, plus jogging, I go over stretches and warm ups.
But I can not force any kind of fitness level on the students outside of class, what they do they do by their own desire.
Regardless there are still going to be newcomers, beginners and people with old sports injuries, that can not hold a steel blade for the length of time required. It is a sound point regardless.
Trust me, I do understand this. You will remember that I run a little school down here, and we have our own share of people with injuries, or who are as young as 11, and cannot hold the sword for long. But it comes with time, as with all learning of the sword. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 09/21/2006 3:38 PM |
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Posted By warwick on 09-21-2006 3:24 PM William (may I call you William? I did buy your book so I hope you will forgive the familiarity ) I think your last post puts a fine edge on the issues and clarifies positions nicely.
Wrong William - but I am sure he appreciates the compliment 
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/21/2006 3:38 PM |
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Posted By Guillemin on 09-20-2006 11:49 PM
Building up this muscle mass is not difficult, and can often be accomplished in the first month or so of rapier play. Pushups and most strength training exercises will not help with this. It's forearm muscles, which are rarely used in everyday life, that invariably fail first while fighting.
I believe if the forearm is failing first they need a lesson in body mechanics and how to hold a blade using their back (and shoulder) muscles to take on some of the load. I bet you already do that and possibly don't even know it. Attempting to hold a 3lb rapier for a 3 hour practice using just your forearm, while an excellent workout, seems like something that could be improved upon thru instruction.
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warwick
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| 09/21/2006 3:40 PM |
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Posted By jgreywolf on 09-21-2006 3:38 PM
Posted By warwick on 09-21-2006 3:24 PM William (may I call you William? I did buy your book so I hope you will forgive the familiarity ) I think your last post puts a fine edge on the issues and clarifies positions nicely. Wrong William - but I am sure he appreciates the compliment 
Damn!!  Oh well just another star struck rapier fighter...  |
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welder
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Posts:95
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| 09/21/2006 4:08 PM |
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Posted By warwick on 09-21-2006 3:40 PM Posted By jgreywolf on 09-21-2006 3:38 PM
Posted By warwick on 09-21-2006 3:24 PM William (may I call you William? I did buy your book so I hope you will forgive the familiarity ) I think your last post puts a fine edge on the issues and clarifies positions nicely. Wrong William - but I am sure he appreciates the compliment Damn!! Oh well just another star struck rapier fighter...
No worries. Happens all the time.
Well...
I guess not really...
::sniffle::
For just a moment there, I was famous!
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