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Hakim
Scholar
Posts:26
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| 09/15/2006 12:42 AM |
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I vote yes to "Rapier Rule #24: Fibreglass for Practice Only."
As soon as I locate my digi cam I will be uploading some photos regarding various types of fiberglass blades, and my construction method vs. three post and hot glue.
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Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/15/2006 8:02 AM |
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| I vote yes to "Rapier Rule #24: Fibreglass for Practice Only. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Pace
Novice
Posts:3
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| 09/15/2006 8:59 AM |
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I will also vote yes to "Rapier Rule #24: Fibreglass for Practice Only. |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 09/15/2006 9:29 AM |
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This had better not be a democracy, else the inmates will be running the asylum.
If the KRM feels that fibreglass isn't safe for competition, what makes you think he's going to feel it's safe enough for practice?
From what I have seen in this thread, the entire "pro-fibreglass" camp acknowledges that fibreglass is a piss-poor simulator for rapier, but feels that the affordability makes it worthwhile. That is a very weak argument. You're assuming that providing a cheap-ass entry point into the game will bring more members in. I would argue that the success of places like Academie Duello and even Calgary Sword Academy counters that. For every newcomer who would join because they're able to save $150 by having a fibreglass 'sword' made instead of buying a steel simulator, you're losing a more serious potential member who's turned off by the mickey mouse nature of our so-called swordplay involving plastic swords.
And frankly, anyone who can't afford $150 for a sword is not going to be able to afford their annual SCA membership, is not going to be able to afford to travel to kingdom events, isn't able to afford workshops, and so on. If every single fibreglass-wielding person in the kingdom quit right now, the only effect the community as a whole would notice is a decrease in whining on these forums.
For those of you (Liam) who are going to bitch about elitism and people doing this to spite the poor: take that argument to another hobby and see how far it gets you. Try yachting. Try SCUBA. Try skydiving. I think you'll find that it's pretty universal: if you can't afford to do the hobby, you don't do the hobby. There is no entitlement to play rapier.
Arguments against fibreglass:
- Poor simulator (inappropriate flex and handling, feel, balance, and weight, doesn't glide properly against steel)
- unsafe (splinters, dust, lack of flex with a straight shot, broken metal blade used as a base)
- can be used to give an unrealistic advantage (perhaps some of you remember Bob of Boar's Tusk and his dual fibreglass estocs (57" and 53") at QRC a few years back)
- "mickey mouse" derision from potential players
Arguments in favour of fibreglass:
For me, the poor simulator argument ends the discussion. Obviously, some of you feel otherwise, but if "it's cheap" is the only argument you can bring, it's game over.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/15/2006 11:22 AM |
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Arguments in favour of fibreglass:
- cheap - this is a catchall - let's break it down
- useful in drill for new fighters because dowels/rubber chickens are not allowed - they have to use SOMETHING or they're just spectators
- small groups can have a "steel" key
- one less gate for new members
- the length limitation has effectively erased any advantage fibreglass can give
- advanced techniques such as glides, not possible with fibreglass, are not something a new user would perform anyway. By the time they're ready for it, they have steel.
And the attitude that if u can't afford a blade just keep walking is indeed elitist. This isn't SCUBA or sailing - but those are interesting examples since they are hobbies that people might consider elitist in themselves.
Wooden Shinai don't have the properties of steel, yet they have been used as practice weapons for a long, long, long time.
If we unilaterally ban fibreglass the majority of the shires are hooped. We're a community, and we need to think like a community and remember that many of our family members don't live in Vancouver or Seattle. |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 09/15/2006 12:04 PM |
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Your argument still boils down to "cheap."
You did try to counter the unreasonable advantage argument with the length ruling. There's still a weight component that you're neglecting, though, and all the other cons are still in full force.
This is a purely academic argument for me - no one I know still uses that crap, and I'm not exactly likely to face someone with it in tournament because the people who use it can't afford to travel to tournaments outside their local area. I'm arguing strictly on the merits of the move to steel simulators, without any emotional attachment to people who use fibreglass. And there is no downside to a move to exclusive use of steel simulators as presented in the current ruleset proposal.
The majority of shires aren't 'hooped' by this - the majority of shires don't have anyone still using fibreglass. Tir Righ is the last bastion of the fibreglass simulator.
And half the whiners who claim they can't afford a sword smoke a pack a day anyway. Give up smoking for a month and buy a steel simulator. Or give up 3 nights at the bar. For the vast majority, it's not a matter of "can't afford" - it's a matter of "why should I bother, when I can use this fibreglass instead?".
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/15/2006 12:30 PM |
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I agree with practically all your points Thore, as I'm in the same position.
Which is why I suppport Bill 24 - for practice only  |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 09/18/2006 11:41 AM |
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Kieran/Warwick, etc:
Here is the thing - I would rather not have to include all the additional information on the requirements for a fiberglass blade into the rules, just so that it can be used for practice.
Can you provide me with an alternative that only adds one sentence/line to the ruleset?
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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welder
Provost
Posts:95
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| 09/18/2006 11:37 PM |
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On the notion of "cheap," let me suggest some alternative payment options for the dedicated:
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 09/19/2006 5:45 PM |
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Posted By Gwydion on 09-12-2006 4:50 PM
" (i am not going to get into a debate about this..it's pointless.)"
As it should be, we do use blunts don't we? (groooaaan....sorry I couldn't resist)
Just a note Utgar, and all those fortunate ones who dwell in highly populated areas (I am as well, but wasn't always):
A steel key is a great idea, but when there are only two or three rapier combatants in a shire, far removed from Baronies and such great things... things get tough.
Getting blades is much easier now than even 3 years ago, and there are even affordable ones....especially easy if you can do bulk orders (not a common thing in a shire of two or three fighters, but surely easy for a Barony)... and if you're across the border...whoo-hoo, no Customs charges.
"As far as Fiber... my feeling on the subject have been stated elsewhere ... I and my predecessors as Aquaterras Rapier Marshal's made arrangements a long time ago to put steel in our program for loaner gear with good results. and at a minor cost to the Barony."
So, the Barony paid for your steel key?
Just noted that, and thought, "Geez, it must be nice, newcomers get to wreck someone else's steel and not mine"
I'm not trying to start an arguement (it appears to be already in progress), I'm merely trying to remind you that not everyone lives in a Barony or even a large shire... many times it's hard to get a fighting partner...ask Kallyn, he has to travel to fight, ask Draven, he had to travel... some of these fighters arm their opponents just to play because the nearest shire is many miles away. Should they have to foot a bill for steel to teach?
Gwydion
I'm not "Pro" fibreglass (I hate it), but think it has it's place in practice... at least until the student decides to take the next step.
and I'd be fighting heavy now if it hadn't have been for fibreglass, the heavy gear was much easier to obtain/make Very good points Gwydion and I do sometimes forget how nice it is to live in the major populouse areas  , I guess I can say only I feel your pain and hope you guys can get the help you need
Yes the Barony supplies a budget each year for supplies, We have just made a point of adding a bit of new gear in for our budget each year... we also as is usually the case get donations and have had a few very good benefactors... I myself have donated a few items as well (old fencing jackets that are still servicable and unused blades things of that sort), and most of my predecessors have as well in their time.
I would also totally agree with you that there is aplace for Fiber in Practice.
Peace,
Utgar
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/19/2006 5:51 PM |
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Okay so I see Ramon's point here of wanting to cut down the fiberglass stuff from the rules, and I also see Warwick and Thore's points.
I want though to add one other point. Weight. I have 12 students, 6 are under the age of 21. There are several who do not possess the physical ability to hold a steel blade for 2 hours of drill and practice. And I would rather have them hold a lighter weight blade to practice with and hold good form, then be forced to use a steel blade and lose good form because of a lack of muscle. And yes they are working on building up resistence but that takes time.
So....
How about we say something like fibreglass blades can only be used in pratice situations. For information on building a fibregalss blade to the rapier standards of An Tir specifications please see Addendum A.
And then as a sperate booklet put all the info for fibreglass from the last rule sets into an Addendum A.
Problem solved. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 09/19/2006 10:12 PM |
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Course - you just introduced a new problem. Your fighters will still not gain the balanced muscle development to use a steel blade outside of practice.
Perhaps for another thread - but does anyone include a fitness component into their instruction? |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Bart Archer
Novice
Posts:3
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| 09/19/2006 11:16 PM |
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With all do respect it is comments like yours that have made a large number of particpants in SCA events in this area do just as you suggest and find another hobby. So I pose this question to you;
When all of us winners have taken our cheep toys and gone away, Who will you have to prop up youre ego?
Bart Archer |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 09/20/2006 12:04 AM |
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Posted By Bart Archer on 09-19-2006 11:16 PM
With all do respect it is comments like yours that have made a large number of particpants in SCA events in this area do just as you suggest and find another hobby. So I pose this question to you;
When all of us winners have taken our cheep toys and gone away, Who will you have to prop up youre ego?
Bart Archer
Bart ...
First; To whom are you addressing your comments?
Second; As Seneschal of your "area", I would like to know the details on when and where this "large number of participants" were compelled to find another hobby?
If you wish to take this conversation offline, you have my email address.
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 09/20/2006 8:02 AM |
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He's talking to me And should the day come when all the whiners take their cheap plastic swords and go home to cry into their beer about how rude and elitist I am, I'll have the same people to play with that I do now, plus those who see that we actually take the art seriously and join to learn.
You see Bart, there is no ego boost in beating incompetents. You're just speedbumps, to steal a phrase from Simone; the people I have to roll over for the first few rounds of a tournament until I get to the worthwhile fights. I get my thrills fighting people who take the game seriously and are damned good at it. You don't get an adrenaline rush from stepping on an ant.
I fully support the SCA's inclusiveness. Many of the bigger population centers have WMA groups for people who take the art seriously. The SCA fills in the gaps. People who want to play rapier "just for fun" (ie, poorly) as part of their socializing in the SCA are welcome to do so. I just want them playing the same game the rest of us are, with steel simulators. Since I do play with the SCA, I'd rather the organization not be a laughing stock.
Cheers,
TdB
(hoping I've managed to fit the "evil elitist bastard" mold you've created).
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:80
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| 09/20/2006 8:21 AM |
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"And should the day come when all the whiners take their cheap plastic swords and go home to cry into their beer"
I think the key element here is beer. Or cigarettes. What I'm getting at is that in many cases people COULD afford the $70 for a Hanwei blade if they opted to forgo some other money-sink. If you're a smoker doing a pack a day cut down your habit by a pack a week and get your new blade inside 2 months. Drag one less sixpack to the next event and in short order you'll get gear. It's all a matter of adjusting priorities and working towards what you want.
That said, I'm still a proponent of fibreglass for practice only. It's not a cost factor - I have 5 steel blades. It's the fact that I loaned one of those blades to a newcomer and they smoked it into the pavement while I wasn't looking. Our shire is starting it's steelkey now but until we have enough to outfit our local practice it's still my equipment getting broken. And when my stuff breaks, I guarantee that neither the newcomers nor the shire will replace it - it's my loss.
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 09/20/2006 10:24 AM |
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Posted By Kristophe on 09-20-2006 8:21 AM
What I'm getting at is that in many cases people COULD afford the $70 for a Hanwei blade if they opted to forgo some other money-sink.
Yes, exactly. And now, taking off my "nice-guy" hat ...
Annual cost of membership in the SCA = One cup of coffee per week (12 cents a day).
Cost of a new Hanwei every three years = One cup of coffee per week (10 cents a day).
I am fed up to the teeth with people trying to mask their prioritizing behind a claim of poverty. No sport, activity, hobby, or pasttime comes with a guarantee of inclusion. It's all about assigning priorities.
Three years ago, my Lady wife and I decided that we wanted a large "period" pavilion. It cost us $300+. We sacrifcied attending all but one event that year to do it - because it was important to us.
No one is going to convince me that fibreglass does anything but teach bad habits. The only thing it simulates is a plastic sword. Nor am I buying into the lack of muscle mass argument. Try taking a piece of hollow bamboo to a Heavy practice and telling them you have a right to use it because you don't have the strength to wield rattan.
So, even though this is not a democracy, my "vote" is to get rid of fibreglass entirely - set a date, such as next May, for its demise and let's get on with life.
I no longer want my hobby reduced to the lowest common denominator.
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Kallyn
Novice
Posts:8
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| 09/20/2006 11:19 AM |
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Posted By TdB on 09-20-2006 8:02 AM He's talking to me  And should the day come when all the whiners take their cheap plastic swords and go home to cry into their beer about how rude and elitist I am, I'll have the same people to play with that I do now, plus those who see that we actually take the art seriously and join to learn. You see Bart, there is no ego boost in beating incompetents. You're just speedbumps, to steal a phrase from Simone; the people I have to roll over for the first few rounds of a tournament until I get to the worthwhile fights. I get my thrills fighting people who take the game seriously and are damned good at it. You don't get an adrenaline rush from stepping on an ant. I fully support the SCA's inclusiveness. Many of the bigger population centers have WMA groups for people who take the art seriously. The SCA fills in the gaps. People who want to play rapier "just for fun" (ie, poorly) as part of their socializing in the SCA are welcome to do so. I just want them playing the same game the rest of us are, with steel simulators. Since I do play with the SCA, I'd rather the organization not be a laughing stock. Cheers, TdB (hoping I've managed to fit the "evil elitist bastard" mold you've created).
PRICING!!!!
PC filter has been turned off here. Plain words are being written and it is MY OWN OPINION!
Thore, you are absolutely right in the fact that there is no adrenaline rush beating those that are there “for the fun of it” and they are speed bumps. I do agree that having fibreglass removed from tourneys is a good thing. What I think is that fibreglass should be allowed for practice only, but that is something different that I am going to rant about.
Those that hide behind the price is being a whiny, snivelling, lazy slob. Before anyone jumps for the reply button please read on…
I live in one of the remotest areas in the Kingdom to access gear. I have to contend with duty fees (as much as every Canadian). I have to deal with a bit more on Shipping and Handling (living so far off the beaten path ). I have a family of six to deal with, not to mention animals, cost of fuel and all that BS. Yet I own a 34” Schlager blade and a 43” Hen Wei sword. I am planning on getting a steel dagger, not because it is going to be “No fibreglass”, but I WANT one. I like to hear the sound of steel-on-steel combat.
All those that Bitch about the price don’t have Rapier combat as an important item in their life. So be it. But they cannot whimper and whine when something like this occurs. “You get out as much as you put in.” If you aren’t going to spend the money and throw up excuses, how much do you really want to play? Those that whine about cost, I pose this question to you;
“If the cost of a blade is too much, how can you afford to go ‘eventing’?”
Those “Elitists”, I pose this question;
“Where is it documented that fibreglass is more dangerous than steel?”
Kallyn
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/20/2006 8:01 PM |
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Posted By jgreywolf on 09-18-2006 11:41 AM
Kieran/Warwick, etc:
Here is the thing - I would rather not have to include all the additional information on the requirements for a fiberglass blade into the rules, just so that it can be used for practice.
Can you provide me with an alternative that only adds one sentence/line to the ruleset?
I've been out of town all week (in fact I'm still out of town), so sorry I haven't been able to respond, Justin.
Just off the top of my head - how about "For slow drill work only, substitutes such as wooden dowels or fibreglass rods, with bonkers, may be used if steel simulators are not available." |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/20/2006 8:04 PM |
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Posted By jgreywolf on 09-19-2006 10:12 PM
Course - you just introduced a new problem. Your fighters will still not gain the balanced muscle development to use a steel blade outside of practice.
Perhaps for another thread - but does anyone include a fitness component into their instruction?
I have em jog, and perform squats, pushups and situps, as well a reflex building drills. But I'm a sadist. |
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