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Subject: Draft 2 (aug 28) stuff
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TdBUser is Offline
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08/28/2006 8:01 AM Alert 
1.3.8 and 1.2.6 are redundant.  1.3.8 says it better.

1.6.3 should be 1.6.2.a

1.6.4 should specify "In Melee combat"

1.6.6 isn't a rule. It's a collection of examples.  Should be reworded.

1.8.6 prevents the dropping of a rapier after the sword arm has been hit.  I don't like that rule much, as it involves a loss of realism.  I will have to hold the sword and arm behind me, instead, which is an uncomfortable position to fight from.

1.11.1 necessitates adding "Improper calling of hold to escape a disadvantage" to the examples in 1.8.2

2.3.5 absolutely requires a gusset, as worded.  That needs to be changed.  My 800N+ FIE unitard doesn't have armpit gussets at all, yet provides better protection than a gusset on a loose shirt.


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HakimUser is Offline
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08/28/2006 12:03 PM Alert 
1.6. Use of Weapons and Parrying Devices
1. Valid Attacks for Rapier Combat include: Thrusts, Tip Cuts, Draw Cuts, Push Cuts, Shot (RBG), Death
From Behind (Melee)
2. Cuts that include a percussive element are allowed for Cut and Thrust Combat only.
3. Percussive cuts must always be delivered with sufficient control so as not to injure the opponent, while
still delivering the necessary impact for a valid cut.

Ok I am a little concerned. I do heavy combat and have had Percusive force ingrained into my musccle memory I can see a problem arising here as more and more heavies are picking up rapeirs. The heavy version of "not injure" is more than likely way different then the rapier community. At last may crown I had thrown a beautiful offside snap on a don, it was by accident and it was delt with right away, but that doesn't excuss the fact that it rocked his head. What I am saying is that muscle memory usualy overpowers the brain when we have addrenalin flowing. I am also a little confused about "cut and thrust" is that not the attacks we already use?

A rather confused Hakim looking to rid some of his ignorance.


Hakim
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08/28/2006 1:36 PM Alert 
Percussive cuts are allowed in Cut and Thrust combat only.  C&T has a separate authorization requirement, a separate marshallate, stricter armoring requirements, and different weapons (sideswords).  Percussive cuts are still not allowed in what these rules are calling "heavy rapier" combat, which is what we've been doing these past 10+ years.

So: no whacking people with the edge (or flat!) of the sword in normal rapier combat.   Whacking with the edge with sideswords in C&T is fine, assuming you use appropriate force.  The marshallate is going to be very careful about giving out C&T authorizations.

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jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/28/2006 2:04 PM Alert 
Posted By TdB on 08-28-2006 8:01 AM
1.3.8 and 1.2.6 are redundant.  1.3.8 says it better.

Whoops - I thought I had removed 1.2.6

1.6.3 should be 1.6.2.a

Done

1.6.4 should specify "In Melee combat"

Done

1.6.6 isn't a rule. It's a collection of examples.  Should be reworded.

The intent is to specify invalid attacks.  Suggestion on how to change?

1.8.6 prevents the dropping of a rapier after the sword arm has been hit.  I don't like that rule much, as it involves a loss of realism.  I will have to hold the sword and arm behind me, instead, which is an uncomfortable position to fight from.

Or put the sword down just off the field, ask the marshal to take the sword, etc.  Sure it impacts realism a bit, but I see it as a safety issue.  Throug something on the ground, then what - trip over it?  Seen it happen. 

1.11.1 necessitates adding "Improper calling of hold to escape a disadvantage" to the examples in 1.8.2

Done

2.3.5 absolutely requires a gusset, as worded.  That needs to be changed.  My 800N+ FIE unitard doesn't have armpit gussets at all, yet provides better protection than a gusset on a loose shirt.

I dont read it that way.  It states that the gusset is the MINIMUM requirement.


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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
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Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
Kieran GunnUser is Offline
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08/28/2006 5:17 PM Alert 
2.3.5: Change the word gusset to the word area and it reads a bit awkward but gets the point across just fine.

b. The armpit protection must satisfy the following minimum requirements:
i. A triangular area with the base of that area aligned with the joint of the under side of the arm
and the body
ii. The point of the area must extend at least 1/3 of the way down the upper arm
iii. The base of the area must extend from at least the center line of the biceps to at least the
center line of the triceps
TdBUser is Offline
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08/29/2006 8:44 AM Alert 
1.6.6   Death Lunges, Late Attacks, attacks that land flat, attacks from a legged fighter rising off his heels or the ground, and any other attack which doesn't fit into the definition of a valid attack are invalid, and should be called back by the fighter who threw them (see 1.7.6).

Even that statement is redundant, though.  You've already defined a valid attack in 1.6.1.  You've already said that invalid attacks should be called back by the fighter who throws them in the 1.7 series.   You can probably drop this paragraph and trust to 1.7 to deal with it.

You may wish (especially if you drop what's now 1.6.6) to include "late" or "death lunge" in the description of what's to be called out by the fighter not taking the blow, in 1.7.7.b - they're included by 1.6.6, but you never hear anyone call those now.



For 2.3.5, perhaps you could say:
b.  The armpit protection must satisfy the following minimum requirements:
i.  Consistent use of the same puncture resistant material used to cover the main portion of the torso in the sleeve (as is the case with modern fencing jackets) OR
ii.  A triangular gusset of puncture resistant material with the base of the gusset aligned with the joint of the under side of the arm and the body.  The point of the gusset must extend at least 1/3 of the way down the upper arm.  The base of the gusset must extend from at least the center line of the biceps to at least the center line of the triceps

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HakimUser is Offline
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08/30/2006 1:30 PM Alert 
"1.7.12.
b. Kneeling or sitting fighters may not rise off the ground or their own feet."

Does that mean that the fighter's butt needs to stay down on their heels?


"1.1
Rigid Material(RM)
 Two layers of heavy (8 ounce) leather"

Has the two layers of 8oz unhardened leather been tested with a mask tester? I don't have one otherwise I would test it my self. I think we also need to put in that leather thickness is 1 oz = 1/64th of an inch. ie. 8 oz is 8/64" or 1/8" alot of people pick up "scrap" leather and have no idea what weight the leather is.


2.6.4. A shield must have a maximum silhouette area of 530 square inches. This is equivalent to a circle with a
26" diameter.

d. Metal shields must have rolled edges or the equivalent.

What gauge should the metal sheild be made out of? I would recomend at least 18 gauge.




Hakim
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jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/30/2006 2:46 PM Alert 
Posted By Hakim on 08-30-2006 1:30 PM
"1.7.12.
b. Kneeling or sitting fighters may not rise off the ground or their own feet."

Does that mean that the fighter's butt needs to stay down on their heels?


"1.1
Rigid Material(RM)
 Two layers of heavy (8 ounce) leather"

Has the two layers of 8oz unhardened leather been tested with a mask tester? I don't have one otherwise I would test it my self. I think we also need to put in that leather thickness is 1 oz = 1/64th of an inch. ie. 8 oz is 8/64" or 1/8" alot of people pick up "scrap" leather and have no idea what weight the leather is.


2.6.4. A shield must have a maximum silhouette area of 530 square inches. This is equivalent to a circle with a
26" diameter.

d. Metal shields must have rolled edges or the equivalent.

What gauge should the metal sheild be made out of? I would recomend at least 18 gauge.





Thore - updated the draft to include your suggestions.

Hakim:

1.1:  I have updated the definitions slightly, see new draft that I will be posting within the hour...

1.7.12:  Yes

2.6.4.d: Good question.  This is an item that is not set in policy by the Society Rules.  I can work with 18 gauge, though I question if we need to include the "restriction"  Thoughts?


Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
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Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
HakimUser is Offline
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08/30/2006 3:12 PM Alert 
I was thinking off it being more of a recomendation than restriction. A 20 ga. buckler at a 26" diameter is rather flimsy and I would hate to see some one's buckler  fold over when struck. I guess it really depends on the construction method as well.

Hakim
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mahee_of_acreUser is Offline
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08/30/2006 10:46 PM Alert 
last time I posted here...it said i was not authorized to do so and I lost all of my comments...this is a test to see if it will work this time.

Your servant,
mahee
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08/30/2006 11:29 PM Alert 
Definitions:
Slap Any “cut” that initially strikes with the edge of the blade, then bounces off (i.e., no
draw).

It should say:
Slap Any “cut” that initially strikes with the edge of the blade, then bounces off (i.e., no
draw) or impact with the flat of the blade.
- - -
1.3.3. No person shall participate in Combat-Related Activities outside of formal training sessions unless he or she shall have been properly authorized under Society and Kingdom procedures.

This rule says that I can not do what I want in my own backyard. An easy correction is to add “List” to the definition section.
- - -
1.3.4. All combatants must be presented to, and be acceptable to, the Sovereign or his or her representative.

Since there is not a presentation to the Sovereign or representative at all tourneys, this could be corrected as follows:

4. All combatants must be acceptable to, the Sovereign or his or her representative.
- - -
1.3.7. Combatants shall behave in a knightly and chivalrous manner, and shall fight according to the appropriate Society and Kingdom Conventions of Combat.

Unless you define ‘knightly’ as something other than chivalrous, it is redundant. An easy correction would be as follows:
7. Combatants shall behave in a chivalrous manner, and shall fight according to the
appropriate Society and Kingdom Conventions of Combat.
- - -
1.8.6. Do not drop, throw, set down, or otherwise leave anything on a field during combat.

This rule is correct as written. It does not stop me from setting my weapon down off the side of the field or handing it off to a marshal to do the same.
- - -
1.9 does not include a ‘lay on’ command, but 1.10 does. They either both should or neither should.
- - -
1.10.2. Fighters may strike any opponent with any legal blow if they are within the 180 degree arc of the opponent's front.
a. A fighter who approaches an opponent from behind shall not deliver a blow until he is within that frontal arc.

A term has already been defined for this and is better than the wording here. 180 degree act from my front, is 360 degrees as you have 180 to the left and 180 to the right of front. A simple correction might be as follows:

2. Fighters may strike any opponent with any legal blow if they are within their opponents field of contact.
a. A fighter who approaches an opponent from behind shall not deliver a blow until he is within his opponents field of contact.
- - -
2.3.5.b. Gussets are a sewing term. Not all armor has gussets. Mine does not. I am puncture resistant all the way around my arm to my elbow...thus no gusset. Although a bit convoluted, a correction could be made as follows:

b. The armpit protection must at least cover a triangle with the base aligned with the joint of the under side of the arm and the body extending at least 1/3 of the way down the upper arm and from at least the center line of the biceps to at least the center line of the triceps.
---
2.3.5.c. Male fighters must wear rigid genital protection in addition to puncture resistant groin protection.

I am not stating a correction here. Most forms of Doublet armor do not cover this area and most fighters do not wear puncture resistant pants.
---
2.3.5.a. Cut and Thrust rapier
iv. Additional padding over the ribs is recommended.

This is simply numbered incorrectly. It should be:

2.3.5.d. Cut and Thrust rapier
i. Additional padding over the ribs is recommended.
- - -
1.7.8. Unless otherwise defined by the MiC, Simultaneous kills are mutually destructive. Each fighter receives a loss.

This belongs in Rules of the List, not Acknowledgement of Blows

----
Please take no offence in any of my suggestions as none is intended.

Your servant,
mahee

Your servant,
mahee
jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/31/2006 11:52 AM Alert 

Please see comments Inline

Posted By mahee_of_acre on 08-30-2006 11:29 PM
Definitions:
Slap Any “cut” that initially strikes with the edge of the blade, then bounces off (i.e., no
draw).

It should say:
Slap Any “cut” that initially strikes with the edge of the blade, then bounces off (i.e., no
draw) or impact with the flat of the blade.

Impact with the flat of a blade is "Flat", which is different than a "Slap"
- - -
1.3.3. No person shall participate in Combat-Related Activities outside of formal training sessions unless he or she shall have been properly authorized under Society and Kingdom procedures.

This rule says that I can not do what I want in my own backyard. An easy correction is to add “List” to the definition section.

Whatever someone does outside of the SCA is their own deal.  This document only refers to the SCA.

- - -
1.3.4. All combatants must be presented to, and be acceptable to, the Sovereign or his or her representative.

Since there is not a presentation to the Sovereign or representative at all tourneys, this could be corrected as follows:

4. All combatants must be acceptable to, the Sovereign or his or her representative.

Actually, they are.  Read the section that says "or his or her representative".  That representative is the marshal performing authorizations.

Also, anything in 1.3 CANNOT be changed.  These are the Rules of the Lists of the SCA.

- - -
1.3.7. Combatants shall behave in a knightly and chivalrous manner, and shall fight according to the appropriate Society and Kingdom Conventions of Combat.

Unless you define ‘knightly’ as something other than chivalrous, it is redundant. An easy correction would be as follows:
7. Combatants shall behave in a chivalrous manner, and shall fight according to the
appropriate Society and Kingdom Conventions of Combat.

Anything in 1.3 CANNOT be changed.  These are the Rules of the Lists of the SCA.
- - -
1.8.6. Do not drop, throw, set down, or otherwise leave anything on a field during combat.

This rule is correct as written. It does not stop me from setting my weapon down off the side of the field or handing it off to a marshal to do the same.
- - -
1.9 does not include a ‘lay on’ command, but 1.10 does. They either both should or neither should.

Good catch, will add to revision.
- - -
1.10.2. Fighters may strike any opponent with any legal blow if they are within the 180 degree arc of the opponent's front.
a. A fighter who approaches an opponent from behind shall not deliver a blow until he is within that frontal arc.

A term has already been defined for this and is better than the wording here. 180 degree act from my front, is 360 degrees as you have 180 to the left and 180 to the right of front. A simple correction might be as follows:

2. Fighters may strike any opponent with any legal blow if they are within their opponents field of contact.
a. A fighter who approaches an opponent from behind shall not deliver a blow until he is within his opponents field of contact.

I think this is splitting hairs, to be honest, but I think I see your point.  However, a 180 arc of the opponents front is NOT 360 degrees.  It is not 180 degrees FROM the front, but a 180 degree arc OF the opponent's front - which is, as you say, left to right. 

Perhaps we just call it redundant, and remove?

- - -
2.3.5.b. Gussets are a sewing term. Not all armor has gussets. Mine does not. I am puncture resistant all the way around my arm to my elbow...thus no gusset. Although a bit convoluted, a correction could be made as follows:

b. The armpit protection must at least cover a triangle with the base aligned with the joint of the under side of the arm and the body extending at least 1/3 of the way down the upper arm and from at least the center line of the biceps to at least the center line of the triceps.

What draft of the rules are you reading?  I think it is fine the way it is in the current draft.  No need to make it more confusing.

---
2.3.5.c. Male fighters must wear rigid genital protection in addition to puncture resistant groin protection.

I am not stating a correction here. Most forms of Doublet armor do not cover this area and most fighters do not wear puncture resistant pants.

Then they have been out of compliance of the rules for many years.  This is not new.  And no one said anything about puncture resistant pants.  Just the groin area.  I take care of this within the same garment that holds my ridig protection. 

---
2.3.5.a. Cut and Thrust rapier
iv. Additional padding over the ribs is recommended.

This is simply numbered incorrectly. It should be:

2.3.5.d. Cut and Thrust rapier
i. Additional padding over the ribs is recommended.

Good catch, will add to revision.
- - -
1.7.8. Unless otherwise defined by the MiC, Simultaneous kills are mutually destructive. Each fighter receives a loss.

This belongs in Rules of the List, not Acknowledgement of Blows

Disagree, since Rules of the List are set at the Society level, and apply to all forms of combat in the Society.

----
Please take no offence in any of my suggestions as none is intended.

None taken. 



Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
Kieran GunnUser is Offline
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08/31/2006 1:39 PM Alert 
" I take care of this within the same garment that holds my ridig protection. "

I use Puncture Resistant modded Superman Underroos
mahee_of_acreUser is Offline
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08/31/2006 1:58 PM Alert 
"Impact with the flat of a blade is "Flat", which is different than a "Slap"" Where is 'flat' shots covered? I must have missed it.

1.3.3. Yeah, I caught this one at 5 am but had not had time to pull it yet

1.3.4. All combatants must be presented to, and be acceptable to, the Sovereign or his or her representative.

I still find this one confusing. It is the "presented to" part that causes me misconceptions.

1.10.2 Sorry,I miss read. Although I think we should still use the terms we defined at the beginning.

2.3.5.b. I was using Aug-28 version. The area required to be puncture resistant should be defined instead of the sewing technique used to cover it.

2.3.5.c. I know that this is not knew. I was pointing out a trend, nothing more. I have found that most fighters do not wear puncture resistant material on their groin. If a broken blade slid off the side of their cup, it would most likely hit only abrasive resistant material. Not trying to cause a problem.

1.7.8. I can see why you are putting it here if we can not add to 1.3. Are we saying that in no tourney that double kills can not be refaught?

Your servant,
mahee

Your servant,
mahee
jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/31/2006 3:13 PM Alert 
1.7.8. Unless otherwise defined by the MiC, Simultaneous kills are mutually destructive. Each fighter receives a loss.

In other words, the MiC can state at the beginning of the tournament that double kills will be re-fought.

Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
mahee_of_acreUser is Offline
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08/31/2006 4:45 PM Alert 
I think I have been awake too long. I missed that. Sorry.

Your servant,
mahee
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