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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 09/07/2006 8:10 PM |
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Liam ~ Do you actually believe that the prime motivation for delisting fiberglass is a conspiracy against those of limited financial means?
As for the "oval" blades, are you talking about Schlagers or the TCA T03s? Because if it's the former, yes - the writing is on the wall for those. If it's the latter, there is no talk about removing them from the approved list so far as I know.
As to why fiberglass (and eventually Schlagers) are being phased out? - They do not in any way approximate the physical properties or behaviour of a period sword. And before anyone jumps on me about the Schlager - I own one and have fought with it for four years. When I borrow a Del Tin or even a Hanwei, I can feel the difference in balance and how it engages and reacts with another blade. In just the short time I have been playing, rapier combat has been greatly refined by many who have devoted themselves to the study and teaching of period masters - and kudos to each and every one of them. The weapons we use also need to be tailored to meet those refinements.
As for finances, I am not made of money either, nor are many in my shire. So to meet our needs that we can keep playing, we are engaging in fundraising and bulk blade orders. Right now Kristophe is putting together a bulk order for blades from James the Just. If anyone would like to get in on it, send me or Kristophe a private email and we can set you up.
So despite being one of the "snobs", I am more than willing to help out those in our community as best I can. Heck, if I win the $8 Million 6/49, I'll personally buy you all a new blade. |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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warwick
Provost
Posts:119
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| 09/08/2006 12:47 AM |
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I apologise for the sarcasm, but the point I'm trying to make stands. Are we really going to dictate to the community how we must drill?
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Mat
Provost
Posts:123
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| 09/08/2006 1:27 AM |
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Posted By mahee_of_acre on 09-04-2006 5:21 PM
I have found that the greatest expence seems to be the guard. If a person does not like the look of a tin bowl, then the guard is the expence...unless someone can point out where to buy nice finished guards.
True enough. Depending on the guard, it can almost double or triple the price of a weapon.
*Guard rant*
When you look at the way a guard is made, there are two main factors that determine it's cost; quality and time. Between quality, cost and time, realistically, a customer can only pick two of them.
Now when you look at how a custom guard is made...First the design is taken from the customer, then the different rings and bars are drawn up to spec, be it by hand or in some random cad program, depending on how insane your hilt maker is.
For designs that involve flat pieces with a lot of shaping (like darkwoods eco-line, and some of his more elaborate stuff), chances are they'll end up being laser cut. If not, the parts will most likely be ground, machined, forged, punched and/or plasma cut to shape by hand.
And bending the bars is no cakewalk either. The radius of the bends, are the rings more oval than round? Are there more than one bend direction per ring/sidebar?
How many rings? How detailed are the bars? Are they round, hexagontal, square, pierced, textured, cold chiseled, casted, hand forged? Rod benders are awesome if it's just something simple, but more elaborate work requires more ingenuity.
Fitting the rings and guard together to the blade is a whole art in it's own right. It's not the easiest thing to do...How snug is the block to the butt of the blade? Are the arms/knuckle bar in line with the blade? is the block centered in line with the blade? Is it a triangular block or just a block the width of the quillions? Is it countersunk so the blade doesn't spin out of line?
How are they welded? Mig, tig, stick, forge welded, oxy/act? Forge welded guards are the most traditional, but are also the hardest to accomplish. Tig has the cleanest results, but there's an art to it. Tig equipment is expensive, so chances are most guards are mig welded. Any shop monkey can run mig. A hobbiest will most likely run mig, and oxy/act or oxy/mapp gas.
And, in terms of finish. were the rings prepped in such a way that the welds could be filed or die-ground flush? Were the bars welded all around each joint? Are the welds free of bubbles? Are they just tacked (think: a drop of jello on both sides of each ring like on so much of the cheapo guards on a lot of the stainless crap out there) together? Is the guard chromed, polished or blackened? Are the welds left visible? Was the spatter (I hate spatter. I ordered a heavy helm awhile back because I want to learn how to fight with a poleaxe or polearm, and the welds on the bars weren't de-spattered...thank god for chissels! Nothin major.) scraped or ground off? Are there visible grinder marks?
Obviously, the cost of guard X would be cut by the customer doing the finishing work. A scotch brite pad and a $5 set of files from princess auto are the bread and butter of finishing work!
Personally, I've been building my own guards for three years now...I went from this (the first guard I built)
To this (the most recent)...the handle and pommel are the first ones I've ever built. I cut and carved the handle from an old sledge hammer/ axe handle which was suggested to me by one of the Drakkar boys like, a year and a half ago (funny that), and the pommel I carved with an angle grinder from a chunk I torch cut from a piece of scrap from work. Tapping a hole isn't all that hard, most tap and die sets come with a thread gauge...then it's just a matter of drilling some test holes in a length of flat bar to determine the hole size you need! I gun blued the works, just so I wouldn't have to worry about rust. The opposite side has a "V" shape that merges into a thumb ring.
Ask me about "How do you weld?" , "Well, how do you weld a guard?" or "What's a mig, wire, or shop monkey/jockey?" or "Quality?" and I'll say "This." 
I guess in short, ya get what ya pay for. Anybody can build a guard, it just takes practice. It's like anything...the more determined you are, the farther you'll get...If beer is involved, and say, a person is willing to like, clean the guard, who knows? If you need to know about hilt making, just ask. It's like Italian targets...A 12 pack'o kieths, or a 15 pack of Canadian will go a long way! I'm 22, saving for a welding truck...I don't need an excuse!  *end guard rant* |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:680
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| 09/08/2006 9:09 AM |
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Schlagers have not been removed from the rules. Liam, before you make any more uninformed posts about what the rules are, or what is happening in rapier, how about you actually read the proposed rules that are available on this site (under SCA Resources -> Combat Rules).
It is not about being snobs, it is about safety. Fiberglass blades are inherently unsafe, and do not accurately simulate a rapier. Now, schlager blades are also guilty of the latter of those two, but at least they are no less safe than other metal simulators with the proper flex. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Kallyn
Novice
Posts:8
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| 09/08/2006 12:35 PM |
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Posted By jgreywolf on 09-08-2006 9:09 AM
It is not about being snobs, it is about safety. Fiberglass blades are inherently unsafe, and do not accurately simulate a rapier. Now, schlager blades are also guilty of the latter of those two, but at least they are no less safe than other metal simulators with the proper flex.
Ramon,
Would you have documentation on how unsafe Fibreglass is? And if so, would I be able to get a copy to check it out? I had always thought that fibreglass would be safer because of the taping to it.
Kallyn
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lord liam
Scholar
Posts:10
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| 09/09/2006 12:09 AM |
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Schlagers have not been removed from the rules. Liam, before you make any more uninformed posts about what the rules are, or what is happening in rapier, how about you actually read the proposed rules that are available on this site (under SCA Resources -> Combat Rules)- posted by jgreywolf
actually, i knew that schlaeger blades are not banned.......yet. but they are up for "review" by the powers that be. sure they might not be the "perfect" simulator, and i fail to see how fiberglass is actually more dangerous, (i am not going to get into a debate about this..it's pointless.)
Sevrin, i appreciate what you are saying and no, i don't believe that the purpose behind getting rid of fiberglass is solely to delist less fortunate peoples, i just find it really frustrating because like i said, you just go out spend a lot of money for new, up to date equipment and then you hear that the rules are probably changing so every dime you just spent is for naught. and i agree with you when you say that you can surely feel the differance between a Del tin and/hanwei.
i do say a great big sorry to those that i have offended
liam
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 09/12/2006 3:09 PM |
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Posted By lord liam on 09-09-2006 12:09 AM
actually, i knew that schlaeger blades are not banned.......yet. but they are up for "review" by the powers that be. sure they might not be the "perfect" simulator, and i fail to see how fiberglass is actually more dangerous, (i am not going to get into a debate about this..it's pointless.)
Just as a note here,
When you say "Powers that be" in regard to blade review you might want to consider the Ramone "IS" the powers that be or at least part of them since hes the KRM 
So unless he has said Schleagers are up for review (which I may have missed but havent seen anywhere) then I would think that they arent actually at this time up for review. I for one would be interested in "Who" it was that was an actual official of the SCA rapier programs that told you this???
Just a thought.
As far as Fiber... my feeling on the subject have been stated elsewhere ... I and my predecessors as Aquaterras Rapier Marshal's made arrangements a long time ago to put steel in our program for loaner gear with good results. and at a minor cost to the Barony. If you put in one blade a year you wont even touch a reasonable budget.
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Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 09/12/2006 4:50 PM |
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" (i am not going to get into a debate about this..it's pointless.)"
As it should be, we do use blunts don't we? (groooaaan....sorry I couldn't resist)
Just a note Utgar, and all those fortunate ones who dwell in highly populated areas (I am as well, but wasn't always):
A steel key is a great idea, but when there are only two or three rapier combatants in a shire, far removed from Baronies and such great things... things get tough.
Getting blades is much easier now than even 3 years ago, and there are even affordable ones....especially easy if you can do bulk orders (not a common thing in a shire of two or three fighters, but surely easy for a Barony)... and if you're across the border...whoo-hoo, no Customs charges.
"As far as Fiber... my feeling on the subject have been stated elsewhere ... I and my predecessors as Aquaterras Rapier Marshal's made arrangements a long time ago to put steel in our program for loaner gear with good results. and at a minor cost to the Barony."
So, the Barony paid for your steel key?
Just noted that, and thought, "Geez, it must be nice, newcomers get to wreck someone else's steel and not mine"
I'm not trying to start an arguement (it appears to be already in progress), I'm merely trying to remind you that not everyone lives in a Barony or even a large shire... many times it's hard to get a fighting partner...ask Kallyn, he has to travel to fight, ask Draven, he had to travel... some of these fighters arm their opponents just to play because the nearest shire is many miles away. Should they have to foot a bill for steel to teach?
Gwydion
I'm not "Pro" fibreglass (I hate it), but think it has it's place in practice... at least until the student decides to take the next step.
and I'd be fighting heavy now if it hadn't have been for fibreglass, the heavy gear was much easier to obtain/make |
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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RuaidhriMacCuileann
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 09/12/2006 7:10 PM |
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I haven't had the benefit of seeing injury reports over a period of years, but I know quite a few people who have, and I recall all of them commenting at one point or other that they see more injuries inflicted by fiberglass than by steel. Sure, it's not a scientific study. It's not even a controlled journalistic study. But it's a noticeable trend that casts doubt upon the safety of fiberglass blades. In my personal history, the hardest hits I've ever taken have been from fiberglass blades. A formal study might be enlightening.
Some have commented that this doesn't make sense. Fiberglass blades are built to be more flexible than steel blades. Why should they be more likely to jack someone? Perhaps it's because a fiberglass blade will not kink or break in a hard hit, where a steel blade will (and a kink or break will disperse a great deal of energy that would otherwise travel through the tip into the target). Perhaps it's in the construction method. A steel blade can only flex in one direction or another, while a multi-rod fiberglass blade can flex in both directions (one rod flexes up while the other flexes down), which results in it not really flexing at all. Maybe the fence-post design was a safer design? Does anyone recall why it was banned? If the fence-post design also had safety flaws, I'm afraid there's not much hope for fiberglass.
Regards,
W. Scott Simmons
aka Ruaidhri Mac Cuileann dal gCais
cadet to Don Tyrus of Misty Haven
Currently imbedded in Ansteorra on a mission so secret that even I have no idea why I'm here... |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:57
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| 09/12/2006 7:47 PM |
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The fence post design was banned because on occasion, they hit like a ton of bricks - people were getting broken ribs from them. They don't take a natural curve, and if you throw a perfectly straight shot, they don't flex in any direction at all.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 09/12/2006 10:24 PM |
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I recall those fence post 'uns...hurt like hell with a straight shot...
But the worst hits I've taken have been from a DelTin and oval TCA blade....go figure
Gwydion |
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/13/2006 12:07 PM |
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Gotta agree with Gwyd on this one.
The hardest hits I've received from people, were wild swings in some kind of hybrid hard cut which really was just a percussive blow they smashed into me. And most of these came from the oval blades because the opponent can whip them around and the heavy blades because they are fencing with them like a baseball bat.
But just like dog owners and breeds ... there are no bad dog breeds ... just bad owners
It's not the weapon's fault, it's the fault of the person handling it.
But it is why I won't be involved in the C&T. I've been hit percussively by too many authorized bad 'rapier' handlers, I'm not looking forward to seeing these people now get a sidesword in their hands and have at people. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Hakim
Scholar
Posts:26
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| 09/13/2006 3:11 PM |
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TdB,
When ever I have struck someone hard with my fiberglass blade it was because of me putting my hips and weight into the shot. My blade flexed, it flexed alot. When I inadvertantly did the same thing with a steel blade there was no flex and I bent my opponent's hilt. What it boils down to is the construction method for fiberglass and the way any sword is used. If I went onto the feild and decided to throw thrusts with the same force that I do in heavy, then I can bet that there will be some serious injuries.
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Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:119
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| 09/13/2006 7:32 PM |
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Fibreglass is more dangerous than steel? No I don't think so. There's a reason we like a slight curve on our del tins.
Fibrglass is a crappy simulator? Definately. But until I can hook a knee, pommel strike, grab an elbow, headbutt or nail my opponent to the ground after I trip them, not to mention actually fear my opponet's sharpened blade (and vice versa), let's not pretend getting rid of fibrglass will change ANYTHING.
I am all for no fibreglass on the warfield or in the tournament eric. But that's as far as it needs to go. I'm sick of the "just save your pennies" argument.
Fibreglass at practice only. What exactly would be the problem with that? And if your answer is it's not a very good simulator, please reread my second paragraph.
Do I sound crabby? heh
W
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/13/2006 8:44 PM |
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| I agree with Warwick, but hey I started this topic. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Mat
Provost
Posts:123
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| 09/13/2006 11:06 PM |
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I took a totally awesome (Yet obviously accident and a total fluke!) percussive shot to the back of my shoulder at practice on sunday, and it left this beautiful cm long cut/gash on my shoulder; didn't do nothin to the shirt, but man, first time I've seen that happen! In all honesty, I didn't even notice it until I got home and jumped in the shower.
Hard shots'll happen regardless of the weapon in question, they're pretty much unavoidable, even when poeple are pulling their shots and whatnot; accidents'll happen. Of course, had I not stupidly stepped left and forward at that EXACT moment... |
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Git-r-dun! |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:57
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| 09/14/2006 8:17 AM |
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Posted By Hakim on 09-13-2006 3:11 PM
TdB,
When ever I have struck someone hard with my fiberglass blade it was because of me putting my hips and weight into the shot. My blade flexed, it flexed alot. When I inadvertantly did the same thing with a steel blade there was no flex and I bent my opponent's hilt. What it boils down to is the construction method for fiberglass and the way any sword is used. If I went onto the feild and decided to throw thrusts with the same force that I do in heavy, then I can bet that there will be some serious injuries.
Someone asked why the fence-post blades were banned; I explained why. It doesn't matter how much your fibreglass blade flexes when you hit someone too hard with it. You're not using a fence-post blade. Your post has nothing to do with the post I made. Straight shots thrown with acceptable force with a fence post fibreglass blade occasionally resulted in no bend whatsoever to the blade, which then resulted in injuries.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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RuaidhriMacCuileann
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 09/14/2006 10:05 AM |
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I guess that blows my theory about the multi-rod construction. Looks like it's just a trait of fiberglass that it occasionally will refuse to flex. Steel does the same thing, but apparently less frequently. In either case, a "spike" effect can occur when the blade drives straight into a target, without any sheer or flexion. Almost all of the energy of the blade travels in a straight line through the tip into the target. The target says "Ouch!" We're assuming a very polite and clean-spoken target, here.
OTOH, some of that energy is lost to vibration in the blade. The closer to a perfectly straight hit you get, the higher the frequency and lower the amplitude you get. In a normal hit, you have a half-wave vibration of high amplitude - a flex of the blade, which disperses most of the energy of the shot. In a spike hit, you have a multiple-wave vibration of low amplitude - a bunch of imperceptible s-curves that keep returning the energy to the target. This is true for both fiberglass and steel.
The difference in behavior comes from the structures of both materials. Fiberglass is a bunch of brittle fibers aligned in a less brittle matrix. It cannot be reshaped once it is cast. In other words, if you want it to curve, you'd better cast it with the curve you want. Fiberglass will flex and flex and flex until it shatters. It won't take a bend. It also tends to dampen lateral shocks (cuts). It does not dampen axial shocks (thrusts). That's part of why fiberglass doesn't behave like a real blade. For example, you can't do a beat/expulsion with fiberglass - the blade just soaks up the energy instead of bouncing away as it should. Steel, on the other hand, is a flexible crystaline structure. Steel is highly elastic - it does not dampen cuts or thrusts. However, steel can release energy by taking a permanent bend. Steel's elasticity also makes it a better conductor of vibration. That's why you never see a fiberglass kalimbe, dobro, or jaw-harp. Because steel doesn't dampen vibration, it has a narrower angle of impact in which the spike effect will occur. Because it can release energy by taking a permanent bend, steel can mitigate a spike hit by failing with a kink.
Anyway, that's my working theory. In practice, I have no idea what the relative frequency of spikes is between fiberglass and steel. From hearsay evidence, fiberglass does it a bit more often. That's probably why fiberglass blades have to be so much more flexible than steel, according to the ABrC (8-20 lb flex for fiberglass, where most steel flexes at 12-18 lbs).
Now that my geek-out is finished, I'll toss in my own opinion. Bar fiberglass from tourneys and melees. Sunset it for training. It is not a good simulator, so it shouldn't be used to train new fighters. However, it's all some groups have right now. A sunset period would allow them time to raise funds for a steel key.
Regarding the financial arguments against banning fiberglass, I'm very sympathetic and sorry that such an inexpensive way to build weapons is going away. I used fiberglass for several years before I got my first schlaeger. I've never been very well off, either. I dread the possibility that my Zamorano might fail, leaving me bladeless for an extended period. But that's how it goes. This isn't a cheap hobby, and I knew that going in. Throughout my career as a fencer, fiberglass has primarily been an entry ramp for those who were reluctant to put out the big bucks before knowing whether they'd enjoy the activity. The recent drive for local branches to set up steel keys neatly takes over that role. A sunset provision of reasonable length (with perhaps some kingdom financial support) would help complete that transition.
BTW, I'm now living in a kingdom where people still use light weapons (foils, epees, etc.). I personally think that using an epee to simulate a rapier is ridiculous. It's a smallsword simulator! It behaves nothing like a rapier! Why are these things still around? I'm sure most of you would agree that it's time for light weapons to go away, just because they don't really simulate period weapons. Throw in the additional safety concerns (I don't recall anyone ever being skewered on a broken heavy rapier blade), and it seems like an idea whose time has come. But people resist getting rid of the stupid things. Why? Because they're a cheaper gateway for entry, they're lighter, so the injured and infirm can use them, they've been around forever so what's the hurry to ban them?
Sound familiar?
Again, I sympathize about the higher expense and the hardship on the economically disadvantaged. I hate to see people struggle to meet their bills, and it sucks that some folks can't afford hobbies. But nobody has a right to a hobby. If you can afford the time and the money involved in a hobby, good on you. If not, you're better off seeing to your basic needs.
Regards,
W. Scott Simmons
aka Ruaidhri Mac Cuileann dal gCais
cadet to Don Tyrus of Misty Haven
Currently embedded in Ansteorra on a mission so secret that I'm not even sure why I'm here... |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:119
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| 09/14/2006 4:06 PM |
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I just need to give new fighters something to hold in their hands when they drill. Half my practice is drill. I line em up, show em how, pair them off, put them to work and do my rounds, repeat. Many new fighters don't even want to fight right away - they are very happy to drill only.
While I would never argue in favour of fibrglass as a simulator, they have their uses in drill.
Also consider that a broken fibreglass rapier is easy and cheap to repair or replace. A broken steel rapier on the other hand...
And just in case anyone wonders why I'm so keen on fibreglass - it has nothing to do with my economic situation (which is excellent) - I think only the academie duello has more practical steel then I (ok a boast - so shoot me).
My motivations are altruistic. Inland groups with only a few fighters have no budget to speak of. I'm MOB for Lionsgate. We're going to do just fine regardless of the final decision. If I have to I will loan out my own steel to new fighters.
An analogy: What happens if you never allow your child to have candy and forbid your child from ever eating candy? Answer: They steal money to buy candy or they steal the candy itself.
I ain't gonna stop beating this horse cause it's still kicking y'all. |
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Kieran Gunn
Free Scholar
Posts:46
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| 09/15/2006 12:23 AM |
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My 2 cents:
Rapier Rule #24: Fibreglass for Practice Only.
Vote "Yes" on 24.
Vote yes and we can soon see this rule in our very own handbook.
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