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Mat
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| 08/29/2006 12:13 AM |
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Posted By godvonrav on 08-28-2006 8:20 PM
1. The 35" schlaeger is the smallest and the cheapest metal blade out there.....and I knew that is the one that would be used for the example. And guess what...I own one...and use it. Do lovely cutting moves with it that people don't expect....but it is at a disadvantage against a competent opponent with a longer blade (trust me....I was frustrated by this fact until I could re-hilt my Del Tin). I'm not dissing the little blade...but it is just that...the SMALLEST blade out there.
Hey, my first blade was a 35" schlager! I pulled it out of the closet just because I was bored awhile back to look at it, and I gotta say that during the time I fought with it, it seemed a lot heavier. Now it's a featherweight when you compare it to the heavier blades.
My second blade was a hanwei, which I gave away awhile back to one of Gwydion's students. It's a funny story actually, involving said student, a garden hose, and gwydion. 
The only part of the sword I can't make at this point in time is the blade, so I cut my costs down by building my own furniture for them!
Cool guard Utgar!
I havn't brazed since my first year of welding. Your Brazing looks really solid! I always love seeing other people's craftsmanship and Handywork!
When I started, all the loaner gear I had access too were schlager blades.
On Fiberglass, I have little to say.
In terms of appearance, red-green inspired, up-turned salad bowls and tin cups. Not all that crucial, I have seen some fiberglass blades with more elaborate hilts, but they're far and few between.
In terms of safety, they're great for new fighters until they get the tip and blade control down. Because they have more give, there's less of a chance that somebody'll get gacked! 
In terms of weight, they're morbidly light when compared to their steel counterparts. 
When fighting against them, the fiberglass blades tend to grab the blade as opposed to letting it slide freely when edge on.
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Sevrin
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| 08/29/2006 12:50 AM |
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Posted By Utgar the Mad on 08-28-2006 4:23 PM
So is it really that much more expensive to use steel?
And just as proof that homemade isnt all that bad, the attached took me about 5 hours of actual work time (lots more in thinking about it) and cost about 10 dollars in supplies.
An eye-opening breakdown in cost comparison ~ Thank you Utgar.
Coincidentally, a group of us in the Okanagan valley are at this moment, pooling our resources and skills with the aim to apply ourselves to a series of workshops, one of which will be hilt making. Two of us have experience making hilts, so we will be shaping and welding, and those who need new swords will be filing and sanding.
We're also going to be applying this effort to garb, armour, muskets (sorry Thore), pavilion/tent making etc. Should be a great community building exercise.
In the meantime, can someone direct us to an approved blade supplier who might give a discount for a bulk order of blades? |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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Hakim
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| 08/29/2006 1:02 AM |
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Posted By Utgar the Mad on 08-28-2006 4:23 PM "75 to 80 bucks for a steel weaponFiberglass: Composite rod for the blade about 20 bucks from tap plastics (3 rods 3/8X6) Composite quillions about 10 bucks from Tap Plastics (1 X 1/2 inch) Enough tape to flote a boat (jk) a couple rolls of strapping and a coupl of different color duct. let estimate 10 bucks 2 extra bird blunts for the ends of the quillions another 5 bucks A peice of PVC or copper pipe for the handle 5 bucks And last but not least a bowl hilt these are about 30 to 40 bucks from Tripplette if you have someone dish metal for you it will be cheeper but if they can do that they can make you a hilt for steel or last but not least you steal a bowl from the wife (it actually cost you about 20 bucks to buy the set, which your going to have to replace if you do this) Composite rod http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=159Stainless bowls http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=306319By my count fiberglass is going to cost in the neibhorhood of 70 bucks. (you will have extra composite rod, enough to make another weapon? who knows) So is it really that much more expensive to use steel? And just as proof that homemade isnt all that bad, the attached took me about 5 hours of actual work time (lots more in thinking about it) and cost about 10 dollars in supplies.
Sand the sides of the bar down so that it will bend at the right poundage. Put it all together, viola you have a blade. If you're really smart go to a construction site and ask for some steel rod and/ or copper pipe, they usually have scrap that they are throwing away.
Total cost not counting tape =$25 and some change.
If you are ordering parts in then you might as well save on shipping and order a blade with the parts.
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Hakim
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godvonrav
Provost
Posts:86
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| 08/29/2006 9:44 PM |
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Posted By Utgar the Mad on 08-28-2006 4:23 PM Saying that you cant afford steel blades and quoting prices form the most expensive around is a very lame argument, lets talk apples to apples here. Steel: Blade 65 dollars from Triplette Pommel about 10 bucks from Alchem Handle use an old peice of broom handle its free Guard, 5 bucks in raw steel and find someone to weld it or braze it, if you cant find womone look me or my Don up we will happily help you... I know you can find someone. Blade T03 35 inch http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/Alchem Pommel http://www.alcheminc.com/pommels.html75 to 80 bucks for a steel weaponFiberglass: Composite rod for the blade about 20 bucks from tap plastics (3 rods 3/8X6) Composite quillions about 10 bucks from Tap Plastics (1 X 1/2 inch) Enough tape to flote a boat (jk) a couple rolls of strapping and a coupl of different color duct. let estimate 10 bucks 2 extra bird blunts for the ends of the quillions another 5 bucks A peice of PVC or copper pipe for the handle 5 bucks And last but not least a bowl hilt these are about 30 to 40 bucks from Tripplette if you have someone dish metal for you it will be cheeper but if they can do that they can make you a hilt for steel or last but not least you steal a bowl from the wife (it actually cost you about 20 bucks to buy the set, which your going to have to replace if you do this) Composite rod http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=159Stainless bowls http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=306319By my count fiberglass is going to cost in the neibhorhood of 70 bucks. (you will have extra composite rod, enough to make another weapon? who knows) So is it really that much more expensive to use steel? And just as proof that homemade isnt all that bad, the attached took me about 5 hours of actual work time (lots more in thinking about it) and cost about 10 dollars in supplies.
hmmmm....apples to apples?
Hyundia of steel vs. the Caddilac of fiberglass? My gosh....you build expensive fiberglass swords. |
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Draven
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| 08/30/2006 10:21 AM |
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Ramon brought up safety issues with Fibreglass.
I don't have any stats on incidents on fibreglass vs steel. But I would wager on if I had a choice on getting gacked (pezzed) by fibreglass over steel. I would choose the former. I am wondering how fibreglass could be more of a safety concern if I have never seen one snap in two or puncture someone. The reasons for concern (as other fighters brought up) seems more based on improper technique than the equipment being the issue. |
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Draven Mac Raith
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion |
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Sevrin
FALSE
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| 08/30/2006 10:54 AM |
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Posted By Draven on 08-30-2006 10:21 AM
... The reasons for concern (as other fighters brought up) seems more based on improper technique than the equipment being the issue.
And that - I feel - is a big part of the issue. A fiberglass simulator doesn't react at all like steel. Take a single measure parry-riposte in quarte for example - it works with steel, but because duct-tape inhibits the blades sliding against each other and fiberglass not only bends wrong but also twists under pressure, students can't learn the technique. Fiberglass, by its nature, lends itself to improper technique.
Molly's observation that Appledore once was exclusively fibreglass is a correct one. Long before I joined the shire, I noted that when I attended their practices, I had to fight differently because of the fiberglass. The "style" of fighting fiberglass created led to erratic sewing-machine thrusts, muscling, and blade trapping (trapping your opponents blade by pinning it with your quillion and taped fiberglass blade, then twisting with all your might).
In my opinion, the only possible use for fiberglass is to have something in your hand when doing foot drills, so you can practice movement while keeping your tip level. But even then, the lack of weight (and therefore mass) provides an artificial experience. |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 08/30/2006 12:52 PM |
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As with any issue, we must look at pros and cons:
PRO: The most important benefit of banning fiberglass is that new fighters fight with a decent simulator from their introduction to the society. They don't get stuck in bad habits and will learn more quickly as a result. It improves the overall image of the rapier community at a Kingdom level.
CON: On the other hand, fiberglass is cheap. You can build at least three "swords" with the money it takes to buy one steel sword, or you need access to someone who can weld a hilt together. It is also easier to handle for new folks and easier bruises-wise on the experienced people who teach them (CHOP!!!)
So, the question is: Is the overall value to the community of banning fiberglass worth the money it will cost individuals and groups to upgrade their kits? To answer properly, we need numbers. How many people use fiberglass swords? How many groups have only fiberglass swords as group armour? How many rapier fighters will we lose temporarily/permanently (due to costs) if this comes into effect? How many groups cannot afford the upgrade to steel, or will be forced to allocate funds which were earmarked for other expenses (ie. local events, symposiums, etc.)?
Is there an easy way to get this information? Maybe a mass e-mail to branch marshals for estimates? |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Luciano
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Posts:143
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| 08/30/2006 1:08 PM |
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It's not a total answer, but what about the survey on this site. For the month of August the survey was on what is your primary weapon, and at this moment there has not been a single person to reply that fiberglass was their primary weapon.
Hakim, I get the impression from your reply, that you are making fiberglass by taking a single rod and doing a little trimming down, not by combining several rods together. Is that what you are doing?
Luciano |
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Hakim
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| 08/30/2006 2:02 PM |
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Posted By Luciano on 08-30-2006 1:08 PM
It's not a total answer, but what about the survey on this site. For the month of August the survey was on what is your primary weapon, and at this moment there has not been a single person to reply that fiberglass was their primary weapon.
Hakim, I get the impression from your reply, that you are making fiberglass by taking a single rod and doing a little trimming down, not by combining several rods together. Is that what you are doing?
Luciano
What I use is a flat Bar that is approx. 3/4" wide and a bit over 1/8 thick. I sand the skin off of the whole bar, otherwise it flexs at about 30-40 pounds (I may be exzagerating here), then I sand the wide sides evenly down unit the blade will flex within the allowable range. Tape it , hilt it, tip it, done. I have only had one marshal not want to pass it in ten years. But he thought I took a large rod and "carved" a blade out of it. When I showed him another blank, and explained the construction technique, he was alright with it.
The fiberglass rods that I have seen have a higher fiber to resin ration than the bars that I have used in the past. The fibers used in thes rods are also larger, so when mixed with the resin don't form together as strong or as fine of a bond. The finer the fiber the more that can be placed in the same area, the stronger the bond. I am no expert on fiberglass but from what I know of steel, clay, concrete, and wood is that the finer the grain/particles the stronger the end result. Also a single rod will flex in a 360 degree rotation, that is why they are used for whip attenaes. Flat bar only flexes in two directions.
I would also like to point out that hot glue is a tearable binding agent and the adhesive on tape these days is really poor, now that they have had to take all of the unhealthy ingridients out. What I believe is that by using the flat bar I have created a stronger, more flexable blade. With real swords a blade made out of one steel is stronger and and more consitant than one made from multiple types epoxyed together. Granted they may have the same flex qualities, but which would you trust to stay together?
I hope that clarifies. If anyone is more knowledgable in fiberglass, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong about my educated guesses.
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Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:682
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| 08/30/2006 2:22 PM |
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Posted By godvonrav on 08-28-2006 8:20 PM
ok....knew this would come...
1. The 35" schlaeger is the smallest and the cheapest metal blade out there.....and I knew that is the one that would be used for the example. And guess what...I own one...and use it. Do lovely cutting moves with it that people don't expect....but it is at a disadvantage against a competent opponent with a longer blade (trust me....I was frustrated by this fact until I could re-hilt my Del Tin). I'm not dissing the little blade...but it is just that...the SMALLEST blade out there.
2. I have to change my tactics against every opponent....size, skill, weapon combos, etc....and yes...if they are using fiberglass.
[SNIP]
4. Properly made...it shouldn't whip like people complain about. And as I sit here and think about it....the only way realistically you'd get whip out of any of the blades (fiberglass or metal) is to be attacking with "flat" of the blade....this is not the weapon's fault...it's the users. And no...the "whippy" metal blades aren't dangerous...just making a comparison that metal whips too.
#1 - The 35" schlager is the shortest blade out there. OK, no argument here. Course, for quite a few fighters out there, it is also the correct length that they should be using for Rapier. This argument only works for anyone that is taller than 5'6" 
#2 - Yes. You do. We all do. Just not sure how that relates to this topic....
#4 - I cannot speak for anyone else, but in my comments I was not referring only to whippiness. And even then, my observations include fiberglass that are far more flexible, whippy, or whatever you want to call it, then any metal blade I have ever seen (even those awful first gen 43" Hanwei's)
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Hakim
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| 08/30/2006 2:53 PM |
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I have to agree with Ramon's point #4 Fiberglass is "whippy", worse than the first gen 43" Hanwei's. But the only time that has ever been an issue for me is when I either did't parry correctly, or used that whip to my advantage. But I have grown and learned that whipping a finger is not nice and kinda rude and I got really good at it to. 
I personaly would hate to see fiber banned completely. Regulated to a practice only no problems, btw I only own fiberglass weapons at this time. When a new person comes out to practice, who may have never picked up a sword in their life or have not had any combat experience, I would much rather have them use fiber than steel, with fiber they can learn movement, range and appropriate calibration. When they move to steel all that they need to re-learn is range and speed.
This game is to the touch so theoreticly we should be able to do combat with no armor and baseball bats, Not that I would do that as accidents do happen.
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Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
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Luciano
Provost
Posts:143
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| 08/30/2006 6:55 PM |
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Hakim, Thank you for instructions on how you make a fiberglass rapier. I have one question though. Ignoring what a marshal will pass/has passed, how is that blade legal under the current rules, 4.3.4.2. Single rod, or fence post, blades are not permitted?
Your discussion on higher fiber to resin ratio also brings up something, and that is quality control on fiberglass blades. The few fiberglass blades I've made were made from bicycle flag poles. But if you go to a construction supply store and buy a fiberglass rod, it is likely to be of a different ratio, and therefore have different properties.
Then you have the skill of the person making the rapier. I'll admit I'm not the most skilled of people when it comes to building things with my hands. A blade I make is going to be different than a blade you make. I might fill the thing with 6 glues sticks worth of glue, and you'll only use one. I might add enough tape to hold down a large elephant, you might just place enough to cover the blade. Both blades are going to have different properties.
Most of us aren't skilled enough or don't have the time to properly judge a fiberglass blade in a 3 minute inspection.
A steel blade has to have several copies of it destruction tested. They have to have quality control in the process. And if they don't have quality control, that manufacture is removed from the list of acceptable blades. But if I screw up my fiberglass blade, and it gets bounced, I can make another one, and who knows if it will be any better than the first one.
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Hakim
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| 08/31/2006 10:58 AM |
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Posted By Luciano on 08-30-2006 6:55 PM (edited by hakim for space)
" Ignoring what a marshal will pass/has passed, how is that blade legal under the current rules, 4.3.4.2. Single rod, or fence post, blades are not permitted?"
Your discussion on higher fiber to resin ratio also brings up something, and that is quality control on fiberglass blades. The few fiberglass blades I've made were made from bicycle flag poles. But if you go to a construction supply store and buy a fiberglass rod, it is likely to be of a different ratio, and therefore have different properties.
Then you have the skill of the person making the rapier. I'll admit I'm not the most skilled of people when it comes to building things with my hands. A blade I make is going to be different than a blade you make. I might fill the thing with 6 glues sticks worth of glue, and you'll only use one. I might add enough tape to hold down a large elephant, you might just place enough to cover the blade. Both blades are going to have different properties.
Most of us aren't skilled enough or don't have the time to properly judge a fiberglass blade in a 3 minute inspection.
A steel blade has to have several copies of it destruction tested. They have to have quality control in the process. And if they don't have quality control, that manufacture is removed from the list of acceptable blades. But if I screw up my fiberglass blade, and it gets bounced, I can make another one, and who knows if it will be any better than the first one.
Luciano On your first point I have had this discusion with numerous seniors in the past( I can't remember names). Rod vs. Bar, (rod is round, bar is flat) the method of taking two or three rods, gluing them together makes a bar. Other than holding the rods together what purpose does the hot glue serve? Why not make it out of a bar? we don't want fiberglass foils, we want fiberglass rapiers.
" quality control on fiberglass"
if we were required to use specific fiberglass that would solve that problem, ie. poltruded fiberglass poles for pikes in heavy.
"Most of us aren't skilled enough or don't have the time to properly judge a fiberglass blade in a 3 minute inspection."
Then why are those people marshals? Do they have the time to properly inspect a steel blade? If your statement is the case, then there is where I see our safety problem.
Ramon, do you have any thoughts on this method of construction?
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Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
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Luciano
Provost
Posts:143
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| 08/31/2006 11:44 AM |
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With a steel blade, you have some assurance that it has gone through some kind of quality control in the manufacture process. So you mostly are testing for wear and tear issues, kinks, burs, nicks, etc.
With a fiberglass blade, you have no such assurance, so you are not just looking for wear and tear issues, but for design and construction flaws. You don't know what kind of fiberglass is under the tape and no sure way of finding that info out. You can ask the person, but not everyone with know. Most will say a fiberglass rod I found at Home Depot, or some other such vague answer. So you can't tell if the fiberglass it quality. Did the person use a broke foil as the base? Is there a chance that is going to poke through the tape if the blade gets flexed too far in one direction? How far up the blade does that foil blade go? There are so many things in the construction that the marshal doesn't know about and is being asked to make a judgement call on.
As for Rod vs Bar, I really don't know anything about that. I just know the construction method that was the dominate method involves three fiberglass rods, hot glue, and some tape. And that appears to be the one advocated by the rules.
4.3.4 Fiberglass Blades
1. Blade construction must be hot glue and fiberglass rod composite.
2. Single rod or fence post blades are not permitted.
But my point really isn't to argue the legality of one blade, but to say that there are many variables in the construction of fiberglass blades that the marshal won't have knowledge of. Each person that makes the blade is going to make it different, with different materials, and different construction methods, and that can lead to potential safety issues. Legislating the particular materials would help, but then you'd get people who can't find that particular material locally, and will substitute for something that they have been told by a friend on the internet that it is close to what the rules say, and we're back to different materials that have different properties.
I know the SCA is all about the D.I.Y. lifestyle, but I don't think blades are a place for us to be doing that.
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:682
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| 08/31/2006 3:16 PM |
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My thoughts are pretty much in alignment with Luciano.
It would be interesting to spend some time looking at some fiberglass blades that have been constructed using different methods, different materials, etc. As well as seeing these blades in different stages of construction.
Hakim, would you be willing to document your construction methods in more details, including some images of the process? Drawn, photos, or whatever.
I understand that this is asking for a bit of work on your part, but thought this might be a good way for us to go over this in more detail, with the small bit geography in between us.
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Samauel
Free Scholar
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| 08/31/2006 11:19 PM |
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Little late to this one...
In classical times, they trained men first with wooden swords. Wouldn't fiberglass be the same thing? Go ahead and ban it on the field. Leave it for practice. |
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Hakim
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| 08/31/2006 11:39 PM |
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I would be more than happy to do that for everyone. I have a blade that was of my manufacture and one that was not. I can "deconstruct" them and then re construct them. I will get digital photos done up and maybe staart a new thread with them posted along with instructions.
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Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:682
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| 09/01/2006 7:50 AM |
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Thanks Hakim.
Samauel - no, it would not be the same thing. I think the same thing would be to use wooden swords. 
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Pace
Novice
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| 09/01/2006 2:54 PM |
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I don't see why we can't have fiberglass blades during practise. I live on Vancouver island and started rapier fighting a year and a half ago. If I couldn't start with a cheap blade (like fiberglas) then I wouldn't have joined. Don't get me wrong, I love steel and have a Del tin bated raiper (now) and love that as well but when I started this, I had NO cash. At the time, the cheapest steel blades that we could get our hands on was $100+S&H Canadian. That didn't factor in the cost of material for fighting garb or a mask ($120 canadian) or the cost to get secondarys or the cost to make the hilts. The fiberglass blade is a way for people like myself to start in the SCA cheap, see IF we want to continue and then move on to better blades. Now if they do take Fiberglass away form the practises and it seems like that is what is happening, then small shires are the one who will feel the sting the hardest.
Just my 2 cents and Hi, I'm new the boards. |
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Gwydion
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| 09/01/2006 8:18 PM |
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if fibreglass is disallowed, such is the way things are unfortunately... I won't have them at official practices... unofficial, non-SCA rennaisance combat practices away from the auspices of the SCA however...
...at least until I can get my students outfitted with steel daggers as well (or did we forget that secondaries have to be steel as well on that price list? my dagger cost $135 US from James the Just, and it's pretty damn plain with a T05 blade.)
a tuppence...
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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