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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/27/2006 7:42 AM |
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Okay so without further adieu I bring you the *F* word ... fiberglass.
As we all know it seems to have disappeared from acceptable blade types in the rules.
I've got mixed feelings on this, but I want to at least voice the situation in the little shire I belong to.
I live in Appledore, when I started rapier there were maybe 4 rapier fighters in the shire at the most.
Everyone fought with fiberglass, the big reason why? MONEY.
Our shire is this side of a poor shire, in an area of BC where most of the everyday work is part time or if full time, it's min wage. There are only a few of us with select jobs in the area that make a substantial living.
The more I got into fighting and travelling around, the more steel I ran into and after having the opportunity to fight with it for the first time thanks to cadet Godfrey at the Danescombe Defender's Tourney in 2005 I knew I wanted steel.
Shortly after that I ordered my first blade, then another ... to date I own 4 steel blades, but I also own 4 fiberglass blades.
Over the months I've been pushing rapier in our communities really hard, and as a result we've got almost 10 new fighters in training. Recently 3 of those new fighters have saved enough money to buy steel blades and their own masks.
But there are those people in the shire who can not simply afford a single penny more at this time, it's hard enough for them to drive the 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour twice a week to practice because of the high gas prices.
I have no problem with fiberglass being removed from tournaments, there are usually enough people around or a friend going to a tournament with you who'll let you borrow a steel blade.
But please don't remove fiberglass from the practices.
Thank you for listening. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/27/2006 8:19 AM |
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Fibreglass is a very poor sword simulator. We have far better simulators available, and they're not particlarly expensive any more.
While it's unfortunate that there are people who feel they cannot afford a steel simulator, hobbies can be expensive, and there's no guarantee of access.
Those of us with multiple steel blades are often willing to loan them out to people who don't have their own. And groups with a decent number of fighters often buy loaner gear. Your group certainly seems to have enough fighters to justify that.
Fibreglass simulators are so inferior in terms of weight, balance, feel, and appearance (and that last is important for demos and for having new people take the game seriously) that people who use them are doing themselves a disservice.
Fibreglass has been on the chopping block for over 5 years. The writing has been on the wall at least that long. As the practice of rapier combat advances and new simulators emerge, we move to them. Those of us who are considered elitist scum by the fibreglass underclass have been trying to enforce a switch to steel rapier simulators since schlagers first became ubiquitous. Now that even better simulators are commonplace, it's time to dump the fibreglass. Schlager users take note: This is your official warning that oval schlagers are next on the chopping block. Move to a more accurate simulator, please.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/27/2006 8:27 AM |
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Hey trust me I know fibreglass is a poor simulator, but honestly some people can't even afford to buy a cheap blade.
And I've always been a champion of the little man, the poor man, the person who always seems to get the bunt end of things.
That's why I thought it could maybe be weaned out, remove it from tournaments this year and maybe next year remove it from practice. Instead of just saying too bad that you don't have the money to buy steel but now we're taking away your toys as well. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 08/27/2006 9:45 AM |
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K.. I might get people mad at me, but here goes...
Leave the fibers alone.. Come on.. I understand steel is the better sim, I have a Darkwood.. I know the difference. I started with fibers.. if it hadn't been for that I probably wouldn't have even begun playing again.
Why is it, that this elitist mentality has to kill the fun for those who a)can't afford it, and b) are really enjoying themselves.
Yah, I think my steel is much more enjoyable than my old fiber blade, but hey.. I got to play, I got to enjoy competing with my friends..
Can we just get over the whole.. holier than thou attitude and encourage people to switch instead of hitting them over the head with it..
Please, all of you who look down your nose at the fibers.. please do me one huge favour..
GET OVER YOURSELF..
Seriously, if my blades hadn't been gifted to me, I'd probably be fighting with fiber still.. cause yes steel is expensive..
And even the "cheaper" sims, are still expensive.. baby's gotta eat, and rent needs to be paid..
I can see keeping certain tourney's steel. Rates right up there with the "no showing plastics" in the heavy erics.. whatever.. muckety mucks are called such, cause they muck.. right?
So.. leave the practices alone at least.. Please. just so people can enjoy themselves..
Thankyou for your time...
Oh yah.. I'm picturing a tourney for newbies.. fiberglass blades and flacid gorgets...*smirk* (idn't sarcasm great!?) |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/27/2006 9:51 AM |
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Though I have sympathy for those whose financial situation makes purchasing steel a hardship, I do agree with Thore's points in regard to fibreglass. The writing has been on the wall for a very long time.
Fibreglass teaches very bad habits - habits that have to be un-learned upon the switch to steel. Those who exclusively use fibreglass tend to rely on the unnatural dynamics it possesses - linear flexibility, negligible weight, and the "stickiness" of the tape which makes parrying unrealistic.
As for the financial side of things, it is and always will be a challenge. To assist those in our shire with limited means, we are looking into a bulk order for masks and blades. I have made hilts in the past and along with another member who is a welder, we are planning workshops to make custom hilts for the new blades. We shape and weld, the person needing the blade does the filing and sanding. Steel is cheap, our skills will be offered for free.
Instead of looking at the demise of fibreglass as a roadblock, we can look at it as an opportunity to raise the bar and to combine our skills and resources to help each other, there-by strengthening our community. |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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godvonrav
Provost
Posts:86
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| 08/27/2006 10:43 AM |
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The biggest whine we as a group have is..."How do we attract new
people to Rapier?"
Well...pricing them out isn't really going to help. I've told
people over and over that I can kit them out in a VERY basic gear
for under $150 (CDN). Now with the removal of fiberglass
swords...this has now nearly doubled the price.
And how about the local groups and their "Steel Key"? How in God's
name are you going to get them to upgrade to steel? It was so much
easier to slap together some fiberglass blades for the new students
to use. If some Master of blades came to my council and asked for
the monies to upgrade to steel...I'd laugh his ass out the door.
Now...do I feel that we should bring our standards down to "the
lowest common denominator"? No. And realistically we've already
starting limiting what we can do with fiberglass. Blade length
limits and there removal of use in Kingdom level events
(well...realistically...there is only one Kingdom level rapier
event, Twelth Night). If the Principalities and branches want to
limit their events...then let them do so....and fiberglass will
eventually fade away to a practice weapon only.
And yes...I have always agreed on the basic principal...if you
can't afford to play SCA you should rethink your priorities...but
upping costs for no other reason than vanity (eww...fiberglass is
icky!) then I think the new rule is an ass.
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Don Godfrey von Ravensburg
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:682
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| 08/27/2006 5:03 PM |
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Posted By godvonrav on 08-27-2006 10:43 AM
The biggest whine we as a group have is..."How do we attract new
people to Rapier?"
Well...pricing them out isn't really going to help. I've told
people over and over that I can kit them out in a VERY basic gear
for under $150 (CDN). Now with the removal of fiberglass
swords...this has now nearly doubled the price.
And yes...I have always agreed on the basic principal...if you
can't afford to play SCA you should rethink your priorities...but
upping costs for no other reason than vanity (eww...fiberglass is
icky!) then I think the new rule is an ass.
Two paragraphs above, two points to address:
#1: I can outift someone with a steel simulator, mask, gorget, gloves and torso protection for $150-200 US.
#2: Removing fiberglass blades from the An Tir rules was done for two reasons, and two reasons only. Safery and Respect.
Safety: I have been privy to more injury reports related to fiberglass than anything else (this past Clinton not counting...). I do not feel that these are safe, and as such should not be on the field. For this alone I would want to get rid of fiberglass, but there is more.
Respect: Rapier in the SCA should be something that is fun for us. This also means respecting others desire for fun. How many people are doing rapier, because they think it is fun, cool and exciting to be able to swordfight with other people. We provide a venue for friendly, and invigorating tests of ones skill, wits, and endurance within a living chess match. Usually with only 2 pieces, but sometimes many more.
However, let's al face facts. You cannot re-create historical sword combat with a weapon that does not handle anything like a sword is expected to. And if you try, you are doing a disservice not only to yourself, but to your partner as well.
Just a couple of examples: Swords that can significantly "bend" around another object (dagger, sword, shield, etc) with no special maneuvering by the wielder, is not respectful to the community, or your partner. The inability to make use of effective blade dynamics with a fiberglass blade, is not respectful to yourself. The inability of another fighter being able to make use of realistic and effective techniques against a fiberglass blade is also disrespectful to them, as well as who they are fighting.
Respect for your partner, respect for your community, and respect for the historical arts we are supposed to be re-creating.
Summary:
There is nothing to get over. This is not about elitism, it is not about who is better than someone else, nor is it about forcing societal change through rules. It is all about safety, and actually living up to what we SAY An Tir Rapier Combat is all about.
Are fiberglass swords ugly? Of course they are. How is that different than some of the metal simulators (and not just schlagers), or most of the garb that people wear onto the filed? Ugly is subjective. It could be argued that safety is subjective as well, but I feel that this is something which can be more easily "justified".
If the two issues regarding safety and respect that I mentioned above can be addressed, would I be willing to seriously consider adding fiberglass back into the approved simulators list? Yes. But in order to meet this, I think that the construction method will need to be altered significantly. If someone is interested in looking at this more "officially" for me, please send me an email offlist, or PM on this site...
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:268
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| 08/27/2006 5:33 PM |
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Ask anyone who knows me and they'll tell you I'm not elitist. I support removing fibreglass.
I have argued against banning fibreglass in the past. Now I think the time has come to let it go. It has been coming for years so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
The argument about cost surprises me. Not that steel is expensive, but that people see fibreglass as the only way to play cheaply. I don't understand why branches would be unwilling to purchase a couple blades for loaner gear. Godfrey, what justification would you have for "laughing them out of the room"? Would you react the same way to the request for heavy armour?
I also think it is a great disservice to fighters to allow them to use fibreglass at practice but then only allow them steel at tourney. The two are different enough that having someone practice with fibreglass but only use steel at tourney is just setting them up to fail. The resulting frustration can't be good for retention of members.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:77
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| 08/27/2006 6:17 PM |
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Personally, I would find safety the primary concern for the removal of fibreglass from the approved blade list. That said, before removing them I would support Ramon's suggestion that the construction of the weapons be reviewed with an eye to making them safer.
Raoul said: "The
two are different enough that having someone practice with fibreglass
but only use steel at tourney is just setting them up to fail. The
resulting frustration can't be good for retention of members."
I wouldn't believe this to be the case. It's just like having street hockey gear isn't going to let you play NHL and people realize that. There needs to be an understanding up front that the fibreglass is the BARE MINIMUM equipment that can be used to get started. One of my reasonings for wanting to see them continue as a practice weapon is the fact that not 1 week ago I watched a newcomer to our practice accidentally impact one of my loaner schlagers into the pavement. Sometimes, you just don't want to give new people the steel until they prove they're safe and respectful. (And yes, this was the person's 4th class, they just got stupid for some reason)
Ramon said: "Just a couple of examples: Swords that can significantly "bend" around
another object (dagger, sword, shield, etc) with no special maneuvering
by the wielder, is not respectful to the community, or your partner.
The inability to make use of effective blade dynamics with a fiberglass
blade, is not respectful to yourself. The inability of another fighter
being able to make use of realistic and effective techniques against a
fiberglass blade is also disrespectful to them, as well as who they are
fighting. "
This is also a primary concern. However, if the use of the fibreglass is restricted to practice only, in a forum that doesn't have anything on the line such as a title, position, award, etc. then the risk is minimized. It will teach bad habits without a doubt, and be frustrating to practice against for some - but several of today's Don's started with fibreglass and turned out ok. Besides, there are entire kingdoms allowing foil/epee etc. so we're still far ahead of some areas even with fibreglass.
Raoul said:"The argument about cost surprises me. Not that steel is expensive, but
that people see fibreglass as the only way to play cheaply. I don't
understand why branches would be unwilling to purchase a couple blades
for loaner gear..."
I know our shire is financially low at the moment and is holding money in reserve for hall rentals over the winter etc. The heavies have donated some of their old armor to their practices and such but I don't believe our shire has bought anything for anyone really (heavy or light). Obviously some of the other branches are sitting on fatter wallets than we are if they are buying equipment.
Let's put things in perspective of a new rapier fighter:
1. He/she is probably late teen's to early 20's as this is the time folks find out about things via colleges etc. Budgets are tight with school expenses and getting out on their own for the first time. They hear about this neat new sport they want to try out so they go to a meeting surrounded by people in funny clothes only to hear: "We'd love to have you come out, you can use this loaner steel for a week or two until another n00b shows up and we loan it to him. At the end of the 2 weeks you need to cough up $200USD for equipment or you can't play. Thanks for coming out .... '
PS: After reading this thread I thought I should issue a thank-you to Don Ramon for handling all of this rapier marshallate 'crap'. I can't imagine it's fun having to navigate issues like this one.
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godvonrav
Provost
Posts:86
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| 08/27/2006 6:20 PM |
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Posted By Raoul on 08-27-2006 5:33 PM
Ask anyone who knows me and they'll tell you I'm not elitist. I support removing fibreglass.
I have argued against banning fibreglass in the past. Now I think the time has come to let it go. It has been coming for years so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
The argument about cost surprises me. Not that steel is expensive, but that people see fibreglass as the only way to play cheaply. I don't understand why branches would be unwilling to purchase a couple blades for loaner gear. Godfrey, what justification would you have for "laughing them out of the room"? Would you react the same way to the request for heavy armour?
I also think it is a great disservice to fighters to allow them to use fibreglass at practice but then only allow them steel at tourney. The two are different enough that having someone practice with fibreglass but only use steel at tourney is just setting them up to fail. The resulting frustration can't be good for retention of members.
Raoul
Why would I laugh them out? Simply cost. Heavy armour can be created by locals...blades can't. They have to be bought. I can justify the raw material costs for heavy armour because pickel barrel plastic (a legal material) is cheap. Just as I could justify raw fiberglass rods. I have a harder time justifying the costs of the metal blades themselves...even bare bones blades with no hilts, handles, etc are still relatively expensive, about 65 US for a 35 inch schlaeger (but why set them up for failure with such a short blade) or $85 for a 40 inch. Now add a few of these together ('cuz just one isn't going to be enough....is it?) and you've got some real money happening. This will be hard to justify to some councils because then every niche group ['cuz really...we are in the greater scheme of things] will have their hand out. It's hard enough trying to convince them to buy masks (again because one size doesn't fit all...so you need more than one). So the rapier community better start up a bake sale or something.
And don't give me any crap about lending out equipment to those who don't have any....I've spent MY good money on metal blades...I'm not risking my hard earned cash on the chance that Joe Newbie may bend/break my blade (selfish...ya...but tough...my money)
And for only having fiberglass as a practice weapon...why the hell not? Get the basic idea if this is something you want to invest in. If it's becomes a "practice only" weapon...its just so they can do the drills with something in their damn hands. And....possibly fight with....at practice....only....until they wish to get the real thing.
Now I'm not going to say I like using or fighting against fiberglass blades (can't to certain moves against them...and all that damn goo I have to clean off)....but PHASE THE THINGS OUT. Don't just drop them like hot rocks. |
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Don Godfrey von Ravensburg
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godvonrav
Provost
Posts:86
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| 08/27/2006 6:37 PM |
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Posted By jgreywolf on 08-27-2006 5:03 PM
#1: I can outift someone with a steel simulator, mask, gorget, gloves and torso protection for $150-200 US.
#2: Removing fiberglass blades from the An Tir rules was done for two reasons, and two reasons only. Safery and Respect.
Safety: I have been privy to more injury reports related to fiberglass than anything else (this past Clinton not counting...). I do not feel that these are safe, and as such should not be on the field. For this alone I would want to get rid of fiberglass, but there is more.
Respect: Rapier in the SCA should be something that is fun for us. This also means respecting others desire for fun. How many people are doing rapier, because they think it is fun, cool and exciting to be able to swordfight with other people. We provide a venue for friendly, and invigorating tests of ones skill, wits, and endurance within a living chess match. Usually with only 2 pieces, but sometimes many more.
However, let's al face facts. You cannot re-create historical sword combat with a weapon that does not handle anything like a sword is expected to. And if you try, you are doing a disservice not only to yourself, but to your partner as well.
Just a couple of examples: Swords that can significantly "bend" around another object (dagger, sword, shield, etc) with no special maneuvering by the wielder, is not respectful to the community, or your partner. The inability to make use of effective blade dynamics with a fiberglass blade, is not respectful to yourself. The inability of another fighter being able to make use of realistic and effective techniques against a fiberglass blade is also disrespectful to them, as well as who they are fighting.
Respect for your partner, respect for your community, and respect for the historical arts we are supposed to be re-creating.
Well...if you set them up with a dinky 35" schlaeger...but hey...it's steel. Good on ya. Point given....but not by much.
Safety? How was the weapon used? How was it constructed? And who let it on the field. If it hits too hard....then obviously it wasn't constructed correctly and/or the marshal that let it on the field made a poor attempt (or no attempt) to test it. I remember when fiberglass was all we had...and we tested them for flex and all that jazz....if the marshal is doing their damn job...things should be fine. It's one of my biggest pet peeves about the SCA...nobody wants to be the bad guy and fail stuff/reprimand/pull cards.
Flex? First generation Del tins whip ( I know...I have one) as do most of the longer Hanwie blades that are out there. That is why we reduced the size of the fiberglass to 38 inches. Again...construction and testing...get the marshals to do their jobs!
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Don Godfrey von Ravensburg
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:268
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| 08/27/2006 7:09 PM |
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I'm beginning to hate the fact that this forum eats almost as many of my posts as it keeps. Argh!
Anyway, Godfrey I replied in a most eloquent way:
- Pickle barrel is cheap. How much did heavy helmets cost?
- Loaner gear is not an expense for a niche. Its a cost of recruitment. Recruitment helps the whole branch.
- Banning fibreglass has been coming for years. Its hard to imagine anyone who's been around for awhile not knowing its coming. But you may have a point. Perhaps this version of the rules should give a one year until phase out period before its gone.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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godvonrav
Provost
Posts:86
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| 08/27/2006 9:19 PM |
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Posted By Raoul on 08-27-2006 7:09 PM
I'm beginning to hate the fact that this forum eats almost as many of my posts as it keeps. Argh!
Anyway, Godfrey I replied in a most eloquent way:
- Pickle barrel is cheap. How much did heavy helmets cost?
- Loaner gear is not an expense for a niche. Its a cost of recruitment. Recruitment helps the whole branch.
- Banning fibreglass has been coming for years. Its hard to imagine anyone who's been around for awhile not knowing its coming. But you may have a point. Perhaps this version of the rules should give a one year until phase out period before its gone.
Raoul
Pickel barrel will cover 90 percent of the armour. Yes...but not the head...but the heavies do have an advantage over us...they will pawn off old ugly equipment to "Iron Keys"...we usually don't have that luxury, mostly because when our equipment gets replaced...it's because it has failed (not always...but mostly)
It is an expense....money going out is an expense. Yes....it may be an investment for the future...but why spend more than you have to. Remember....most of the groups in the SCA are SHIRES...not Baronies...budgets are tighter...pennies are (and should be) squeezed for all they are worth.
Yes....I've seen it coming (thank God there are more sources for steel now)....but PHASE it.....gently. That's all I've ever asked.
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Don Godfrey von Ravensburg
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johannes
Novice
Posts:6
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| 08/27/2006 10:01 PM |
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in my onpinoin, as a newbie fighter in the small shire of appledore and as a student of Molly Modine, i believe that fibreglass should be allowed in practices as A)steel is exspensive i spent a months pay on my sword form darkwood armory!!!) and B)it is good for a newbie as it is lighter and far more forgiving to the fighters. now, i for one, would not want to lend my steel rapier to some one just starting out, only to have it bent by a baseball style swing.
Yes, I know, i am a newbie, but I wish to make my feeling on this subject known, even if they are disregarded entirely.
Johannes son of Ceowulf, Page to Molly modine of the Houndslow Heath Cooperative |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/27/2006 10:37 PM |
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Out of the mouths of babes. 
Please excuse Johannes if he seems overly upset, this recent rapier business has hit a lot of people, my students and friends, close to home, too close for many.
The baseball swing wouldn't bend a blade Johannes, but someone who didn't know misura very well could definately throw a hard thrust and bend a blade and yes no one wants that to happen espically if it is not their own.
That's why we work SO hard in our classes on the basics and lessons, drills and lots of slow work.
But Johannes does have one point, and one that a non-rapier fighter brought up tonight and looking back I realize we've got a few new students with this issue .... steel blades are heavy and people, especially a 16 year old, needs time to build up muscles to hold the blade for a few hours. The fibreglass being lighter allows them to concentrate more on the exercise then having to worry about trying to hold the steel up.
Anyhow Johannes we have been asked to stop any further comments at this time while Ramon discusses the current things with the marshals in charge, so we'll give him the time to process these comments and then we'll be able to continue next week. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 08/28/2006 3:40 PM |
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Posted By godvonrav on 08-27-2006 6:37 PM
Posted By jgreywolf on 08-27-2006 5:03 PM
#1: I can outift someone with a steel simulator, mask, gorget, gloves and torso protection for $150-200 US.
#2: Removing fiberglass blades from the An Tir rules was done for two reasons, and two reasons only. Safery and Respect.
Safety: I have been privy to more injury reports related to fiberglass than anything else (this past Clinton not counting...). I do not feel that these are safe, and as such should not be on the field. For this alone I would want to get rid of fiberglass, but there is more.
Respect: Rapier in the SCA should be something that is fun for us. This also means respecting others desire for fun. How many people are doing rapier, because they think it is fun, cool and exciting to be able to swordfight with other people. We provide a venue for friendly, and invigorating tests of ones skill, wits, and endurance within a living chess match. Usually with only 2 pieces, but sometimes many more.
However, let's al face facts. You cannot re-create historical sword combat with a weapon that does not handle anything like a sword is expected to. And if you try, you are doing a disservice not only to yourself, but to your partner as well.
Just a couple of examples: Swords that can significantly "bend" around another object (dagger, sword, shield, etc) with no special maneuvering by the wielder, is not respectful to the community, or your partner. The inability to make use of effective blade dynamics with a fiberglass blade, is not respectful to yourself. The inability of another fighter being able to make use of realistic and effective techniques against a fiberglass blade is also disrespectful to them, as well as who they are fighting.
Respect for your partner, respect for your community, and respect for the historical arts we are supposed to be re-creating.
Well...if you set them up with a dinky 35" schlaeger...but hey...it's steel. Good on ya. Point given....but not by much. Safety? How was the weapon used? How was it constructed? And who let it on the field. If it hits too hard....then obviously it wasn't constructed correctly and/or the marshal that let it on the field made a poor attempt (or no attempt) to test it. I remember when fiberglass was all we had...and we tested them for flex and all that jazz....if the marshal is doing their damn job...things should be fine. It's one of my biggest pet peeves about the SCA...nobody wants to be the bad guy and fail stuff/reprimand/pull cards. Flex? First generation Del tins whip ( I know...I have one) as do most of the longer Hanwie blades that are out there. That is why we reduced the size of the fiberglass to 38 inches. Again...construction and testing...get the marshals to do their jobs!
Umm not trying to be inflamatory here but a few points,
1: Godranov, you seem to think that the length of weapon makes it better? I personally fight witrh a 35 inch blade by choice ... It makes me pay more attention to detail and not just "reach out and touch someone" (which really only works on less experienced/skilled fighters). So saying that a 35 inch loner blade isnt good is a serious mis statement in my opinion.
2: The safety issue may possibly have to do with the fact that people fighting against Fiber have to change the way they fight IE getting into unfamiliar territory and making the fight less safe due to flex or fiber being "sticky" (cant slide blade down blade steel againts fiber)
3: Sounds like Ramon et al are doing exactly what you say one of your pet peeves is and stepping up and saying "No!" to fiberglass and "Pulling it from the field" would you like them to continue to turn a blind eye to it?
4: Finally Fiberglass doesnt "whip" in the same fasion as Steel ... even the whippiest steel still has a graduated flex to it "Flexes more at Foible than Forte) unfortunately the fiberglass swords I have seen that were perfectly legal in flex based on the rules still flexed the entire length of the blade like looking at a bow very much unlike steel. This is my experience yours may differ. as far as the old Hanweis and Del tins... if they are that "Loose" then I say take them off the field as well....I know we have convinced all of our fighters in Aquaterra to get rid of them and replace them with decent hardware now.
Peace,
Utgar
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 08/28/2006 4:23 PM |
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Posted By johannes on 08-27-2006 10:01 PM
in my onpinoin, as a newbie fighter in the small shire of appledore and as a student of Molly Modine, i believe that fibreglass should be allowed in practices as A)steel is exspensive i spent a months pay on my sword form darkwood armory!!!) and B)it is good for a newbie as it is lighter and far more forgiving to the fighters. now, i for one, would not want to lend my steel rapier to some one just starting out, only to have it bent by a baseball style swing.
Yes, I know, i am a newbie, but I wish to make my feeling on this subject known, even if they are disregarded entirely.
Johannes son of Ceowulf, Page to Molly modine of the Houndslow Heath Cooperative
Its interesting to note, so far all of the posts I have read (not directed at you but your the latest to make the argument Johannes) from anyone concerned about the cost always say somethign to the effect of "Steel is expensive, I spent a months pay on my sword from Darkwood armory..." And the fact is your right ... if you go buy a weapon from one of the top makers its going to cost a bunch of coin.....
No one here is arguing the point....
Hell I wish I had a Darkwood blade just to say I did but I dont.
There is a fact here however that most arent stating in this conversation . For 65 dollars you can buy a blade that is steel is 35 inches and is legal. a simple cross hilt that has basic construction can be made for little to no cost.... for the price of the steel I'll braze you a hilt and it will cost you simply time and about ten bucks in materials. It wont be a darkwood, and it wont be the most pretty blade out there but it will function, be safe and teach you steel.
Saying that you cant afford steel blades and quoting prices form the most expensive around is a very lame argument, lets talk apples to apples here.
Steel:
Blade 65 dollars from Triplette
Pommel about 10 bucks from Alchem
Handle use an old peice of broom handle its free
Guard, 5 bucks in raw steel and find someone to weld it or braze it, if you cant find womone look me or my Don up we will happily help you... I know you can find someone.
Blade T03 35 inch http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/
Alchem Pommel http://www.alcheminc.com/pommels.html
75 to 80 bucks for a steel weapon
Fiberglass:
Composite rod for the blade about 20 bucks from tap plastics (3 rods 3/8X6)
Composite quillions about 10 bucks from Tap Plastics (1 X 1/2 inch)
Enough tape to flote a boat (jk) a couple rolls of strapping and a coupl of different color duct. let estimate 10 bucks
2 extra bird blunts for the ends of the quillions another 5 bucks
A peice of PVC or copper pipe for the handle 5 bucks
And last but not least a bowl hilt these are about 30 to 40 bucks from Tripplette if you have someone dish metal for you it will be cheeper but if they can do that they can make you a hilt for steel or last but not least you steal a bowl from the wife (it actually cost you about 20 bucks to buy the set, which your going to have to replace if you do this)
Composite rod http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=159
Stainless bowls http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=306319
By my count fiberglass is going to cost in the neibhorhood of 70 bucks. (you will have extra composite rod, enough to make another weapon? who knows)
So is it really that much more expensive to use steel?
And just as proof that homemade isnt all that bad, the attached took me about 5 hours of actual work time (lots more in thinking about it) and cost about 10 dollars in supplies.
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Silvestro_della_Volpe
Novice
Posts:6
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| 08/28/2006 5:14 PM |
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I tried to make a post in this thread yesterday with some really good points, unfortunately my login time expired and the long thought out words were lost.
There's a few I've managed to save in my memory that i'll attempt to re-type today.
" I'm sorry some ppl can't afford..."
" doesn't have the same feel of a steel..."
" If you can't pay, don't play..."
" Its been on the chopping block for years..."
Talk about repetitive. Some of the points I will say in rebutle will sound like the same arguements to keep fibreglass, but please listen to them with an open mind. I have listened to the steel supportive side for a long time and find my voice needs to be heard.
1) It may have been on the chopping block for years, but with the outcry I have heard from my own students and friends I've attended events with. Even the forums provided me with an obivious outcry from the populace. There is, with out a shadow of a doubt, a definitive outcry that there are people who believe fibreglass should stay and don't care how professional we look as a group. With such an outcry, how dare the marshalette decide its fate is finalized to the drastic level of out right banning something that is proven more safe than steel.
These reports that you (KRM) are privy too that show fibreglass to be more dangerous, I'm sorry but as someone who studied plastic forming a manufacturing designs at Thomspon Rivers University, if it weren't for the fibreglass slivers and the fallible adhesion of hotglue, I wouldn't even tape it up. The duct tape is merely an attempt to give it a metal look. I cannot believe a fibre can cause more damage than steel in combat.
For those interested, fibreglass is a resin matrix form of thermoset plastic. It's processing is heated pultrusion. Because it is thermoset, once cooled, it will not warp due to heat. It would sooner break than warp. I consider my fibre blade very stiff yet I can force it to at least 180 degree bend. I've had it since I began rapier and it has never needed repair other than duct tape. Can you say the same for steel? How many blades have you bought to replace?
I'm currently on my 2nd steel and I do not support the outright banning of fibreglass.
Don't want to take my word for it? Here's a handy website about fibreglass http://www.prepul.co.nz/process.htm
Important point #2
Was not the marshalette set up to ensure and promote safety? If so, why is the cosmetic changes dictacting over safety?
When did the marshalette cross the line, we're not suppose to take sides, but take the course of action which not only is the safest route but which is makes more of an enjoyable hobby for all participants.
Wouldn't it be simpler just to take out the rule of fibreglass and steel being interchangeable and "steel-only" the tourneys?
#3
I'm also tired of hearing about "with proper training that wouldn't happen" This is a scapegoat answer and holds no weight as the marshalette safety measures are there to cover the "just in case it does". Granted there are times when judgement calls need to be made but let's not take on the mentality of "proper training" as a justified resolve, no matter how much it helps.
#4
I find steel daggers too easy to fling about and gain huge gouges in them, this is one area that fibreglass should be allowed for continued use in tournament.
Lord Silvestro della Volpe
Sr. Marshal
Steve Boutilier
Computerized Manufacturing Technology Graduate of TRU
~I can design anything plastic, metal and wood - bring it on. Then I'll tell you how to break it.~ |
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godvonrav
Provost
Posts:86
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| 08/28/2006 8:20 PM |
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Posted By Utgar the Mad on 08-28-2006 3:40 PM
Umm not trying to be inflamatory here but a few points,
1: Godranov, you seem to think that the length of weapon makes it better? I personally fight witrh a 35 inch blade by choice ... It makes me pay more attention to detail and not just "reach out and touch someone" (which really only works on less experienced/skilled fighters). So saying that a 35 inch loner blade isnt good is a serious mis statement in my opinion.
2: The safety issue may possibly have to do with the fact that people fighting against Fiber have to change the way they fight IE getting into unfamiliar territory and making the fight less safe due to flex or fiber being "sticky" (cant slide blade down blade steel againts fiber)
3: Sounds like Ramon et al are doing exactly what you say one of your pet peeves is and stepping up and saying "No!" to fiberglass and "Pulling it from the field" would you like them to continue to turn a blind eye to it?
4: Finally Fiberglass doesnt "whip" in the same fasion as Steel ... even the whippiest steel still has a graduated flex to it "Flexes more at Foible than Forte) unfortunately the fiberglass swords I have seen that were perfectly legal in flex based on the rules still flexed the entire length of the blade like looking at a bow very much unlike steel. This is my experience yours may differ. as far as the old Hanweis and Del tins... if they are that "Loose" then I say take them off the field as well....I know we have convinced all of our fighters in Aquaterra to get rid of them and replace them with decent hardware now.
Peace,
Utgar
ok....knew this would come...
1. The 35" schlaeger is the smallest and the cheapest metal blade out there.....and I knew that is the one that would be used for the example. And guess what...I own one...and use it. Do lovely cutting moves with it that people don't expect....but it is at a disadvantage against a competent opponent with a longer blade (trust me....I was frustrated by this fact until I could re-hilt my Del Tin). I'm not dissing the little blade...but it is just that...the SMALLEST blade out there.
2. I have to change my tactics against every opponent....size, skill, weapon combos, etc....and yes...if they are using fiberglass.
3. No...it sounds like taking the easier road...or possibly it's just a justification for a personal bias (don't know...but I'll have to put the hope that it is the former and not the latter)
4. Properly made...it shouldn't whip like people complain about. And as I sit here and think about it....the only way realistically you'd get whip out of any of the blades (fiberglass or metal) is to be attacking with "flat" of the blade....this is not the weapon's fault...it's the users. And no...the "whippy" metal blades aren't dangerous...just making a comparison that metal whips too.
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Don Godfrey von Ravensburg
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Eira
Provost
Posts:79
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| 08/28/2006 11:59 PM |
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So the rapier community better start up a bake sale or something.
Yeah, why not?
Here's the thing, I used to live in the Shire of Sigelhundas. It's a pretty small shire, small enough that most of you probably don't even know where it is. We didn't have a lot of money and we didn't have steel blades but we wanted them. Know what we did? We did a demo and made some cash and got some blades.
The idea of getting group steel blades is a good one. If your group is unwilling to pay for it, or simply doesn't have the funds, then why NOT fundraise for it?
I don't know about down at core, but up here we work for the money the group spends. We do demos for all sorts of organizations. We run monthly taverns and sometimes that money gets allotted for certain projects.
Trying to raise the money is an idea that should be considered. |
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Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
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