Hakim
Scholar
Posts:26
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| 08/24/2006 5:25 PM |
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I am looking for a clarification and justification on the gusset rule. What was the reasoning for it's being?
Hakim the Spoonstealer
Student to Don Enoch
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Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:682
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| 08/24/2006 8:05 PM |
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The "gusset" ruling was added into the Society Rapier Rules about 3-4 years ago.
My understanding is that this change was intended to address the risk of a "puncture" wound to either the brachial (between elbow and armpit) or femoral (inside of leg between groin and knee).
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/24/2006 11:38 PM |
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Okay so I agree with Hakim here.
Yes my fencing shirts have gussets, but like many people out there, I have done live cuttings at AD.
And personally after doing live cuttings and seeing live cuttings, I don't think the gusset is going to do anything in case of a puncture wound.
The pig sides we were cutting on, were 'dressed', and well that certainly didn't stop the sharp rapier.
I know a few people in the rapier circle have taken to making a undershirt with a full upper sleeve instead of the gusset that can move around, in the end that too I think will offer little protection.
My opinion. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/24/2006 11:40 PM |
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| sorry I missed the 'R' in the word "undershirt" ... bad me. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:682
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| 08/25/2006 6:48 AM |
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Molly - you should be able to edit your posts. I fixed the typo 
Regarding the gussets.
First let us acknowledge that there is a difference between cutting, especially live steel cutting, and thrusts. Then let us remember that the protective requirements for rapier in the SCA are not intended for use with sharp swords. It is really like comparing apples and kumquats.
Since the "gusset" is required to be puncture resistant material, the same as your torso, I have to ask - do you feel that your jacket/doublet would stand the abuse of a serious cut from a sharp sword?
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/25/2006 7:49 AM |
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Hey Ramon
Thank you .. at midnight last night I didn't even see the 'edit' but now I do, anyhow thank you again 
Feel free to remove my second post on that if possible.
Okay so I feel from your question above that I'm going to be damned if I do and damned if I don't. but here goes...
Firstly, my fencing shirt is a trigger guard fencing shirt, over that is a double layer doublet. Personally I have not witnessed what the result would be against a draw cut from a live steel rapier. My guess is that it would go through like butter, and would go through on a thrust as well.
Heck we went through bone on the pig.
I also agree that SCA rapier is not the same as live steel rapier ... I've seen the photos of that historial fencing doublet in that museum. Padded all to heck.
But where I was replying from was in your original reply to Hakim. To quote: this change was intended to address the risk of a "puncture" wound.
You said 'puncture' Ramon so that's where my comments on live steel stemed from is all.
I've been to many tournies this past year and the one discussion that comes up over and over again, is the gusset issue, regardless if no one is posting their opinions about it currently, I know from in-person conversations with many people, (senior marshals, MiCs, Dons, cadets) they don't want it and feel it's useless.
That's what I've been hearing anyhow.
Anyhow I've said my thoughts on this matter. I'm not going to beat subjects into the ground, this forum is to address concerns, issues and opinions and I want to thank you Ramon for giving us, the public, the opportunity to be heard at least. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:77
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| 08/25/2006 8:08 AM |
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I think we need to bear in mind that live steel has absolutely nothing to do with the armoring requirements for SCA rapier. The puncture resistant concept is to protect against flat breaks in our simulator weapons. Some Whitescarves out east ran simulated tests (whey they developed the drop test) and determined that flat breaks will punch 1 layer of trigger. Taking a flat break to the forearm isn't all that dangerous (IE: wont' seriously injure you) - a flat break to the underarm/armpit might. Hence, the gusset rule.
At least, that's my understanding.
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/25/2006 8:18 AM |
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The gusset rule is in at the society level, not added by kingdom. It's there because of the danger from broken epees. It's unlikely to protect against a hard thrust from a jagged break on an epee, either, but the US is very litigious, and the society wanted to have addressed the issue.
None of our armor is worth jack against an intentional full force thrust with a sharp rapier or weapon with a jagged break. It's not intended to be. It's intended to provide some protection against an unintentional thrust with a broken practice weapon.
I fight in an FIE competition unitard under my garb. I'm not harboring any illusion that it'd protect me from a direct strike with a sharp. I wear it because it takes the marshal right out of the picture. It doesn't matter what I'm wearing for garb on the field, because my garb has nothing to do with my armor, and my armor isn't subject to the whim of a marshal. From knees to neck to wrists I'm in material certified to withstand 800N+ which also breathes and wicks sweat away.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:77
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| 08/25/2006 3:44 PM |
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"BTW - The experiments out East were run by OGRs (Dylan, Thomas, Brokk, and Garrick), not WSs. They don't exist in this kingdom ."
Hrm... the source document at http://www.iceweasel.org/ek_schlager_test.html is authored by Don Dylan ap Maelgwn (John D. Murray) and
Don Thomas de Castellan (Thomas F. Zadlo). Perhaps we are thinking of different documents. Or perhaps Don does not equate to Whitescarf in that region. Either way - it's a good read for seeing how much protection our armor standards do (or do not) give us.
Of interest was overall conclusion #2:
The maximum energy we could generate from an attack (in Ex. 3) was 5.57
Joules. It took us 8.8 Joules to "penetrate" 4 layers of trigger over meat
with a broken foil, which is 60% more than we could deliver in an attack. It
took us 8.2 Joules to "penetrate" with a factory schlager, which is still 50%
more energy than the attack.
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Draven
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 08/25/2006 4:41 PM |
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Do I get a cookie if I guess right? 
How about Don Tivar Moondragon
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Draven Mac Raith
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion |
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RuaidhriMacCuileann
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 09/12/2006 5:34 PM |
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BZZZZZZZZ!!!
I'm sorry, but Don Tivar Moondragon is not a resident of the Kingdom of the East. He is a native of Ansteorra.
Dormouse, tell Draven about his consolation prize... 
Regards,
W. Scott Simmons
aka Ruaidhri Mac Cuileann dal gCais
cadet to Don Tyrus of Misty Haven
Currently embedded in Ansteorra on a mission so secret that even I don't know why I'm here... |
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