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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/26/2006 11:24 AM |
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Posted By Albert_Faulke on 08-26-2006 10:55 AM
The information Hakim presented on the leather thickness is important.
This also explains why we were talking at cross-purposes regarding the issue.
So, are there any experienced leather workers on this forum who can shed some practical light on leather gorget material and construction to further this discussion? |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/26/2006 10:14 PM |
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Kallyn
Yes you are right.
I lost it ... comes from being frustrated on a weekly basis.
I openly apologize to you and others not involved in this directly.
The discussion is not even about current rules, it's about draft rules. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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johannes
Novice
Posts:6
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| 08/27/2006 10:09 PM |
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| seeing as how the students gorget in question here is MINE, made by MY father, it is aprox 32 pound boot sole leather with a foam backing covered in 2 more layers of leather ,and, i wasnt even wearing it when you tested it. therefore, it was not properly tested and i bevieve a competent marshall would pass it. |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/27/2006 10:48 PM |
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Johanne it's okay, I know you are frustrated and upset, but please just relax a bit here ... for those who weren't there, we took calipers the the gorget tonight. The outter leather was 8oz (1/4 inch think), plus there is closed cell foam and two more layers of leather. Which current meets the construction standards for the "current" rules, in fact it is above the lowest current level.
I will be posting a new topic though, out of the review area to discuss adding metal to the leather gorgets as we have heard a great deal of different acceptable examples of metal and we want some concrete info before adding plates.
We will add plates to our gorgets because I believe in the extra safety that Sevrin talked about. While adding the plates is above the rules, I know the incident Sevrin talked about and I agree with him in wanting better protection beyond what the rules say. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 08/28/2006 3:37 PM |
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OK, chiming in here quickly, then going away again.
The first set of rules we must obey is SCA minimums. NO kingdom can have rules that are less than SCA minimums. Got that? SCA minimums for rapier are here: http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/rapier_rules.pdf
The SCA minimums for rapier clearly state that gorgets must be rigid for heavy rapier. They ALSO define rigid. To quote "Rigid Material: puncture-resistant material that will not significantly flex, spread apart, or deform under pressure..." The suggested form of pressure is a 12kilo punch tester, which is clearly intended to reference mesh, but the idea is still sound.
Will not significantly flex, ... or deform under pressure.
That's what rigid means, according the SCA minimums. We can be MORE strict than that, but not LESS. We CANNOT specify a material and say it passes for rigid if it does NOT meet the SCA minimum definition of rigid.
Material does not matter. Rigid, as defined by the SCA minimums, matters. That's society rules, and we can't change that.
Also, the requirement is for 1/4" foam OR puncture resistant material OR equivalent. A hood that goes under the gorget is specifically cited as an example.
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:680
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| 08/28/2006 10:39 PM |
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Randy, you are correct. But there is a problem with even the SCA definition, which is in the current draft of the an tir rules. "Will not significantly flex..."
Now we need to define significantly.  |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/28/2006 11:01 PM |
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Ramon
I agree with your reply in regards to Alverro's comment.
We know that gorgets made out of certain materials as written passing examples for gorget construction do have some 'flex'.
How much they flex is a subjective word and idea that an indiviual makes a discussion on when inspecting that gorget. So the redefining of the word rigid or flex to something more objective in measure is needed. This I agree on.
And as stated from the begining while certain gorgets are meeting minimal inspection requirements we want more safety as an OPTION, so to follow Alverro's lead from Clinton we will be plating the gorgets, that's why I brought up the new topic about leather and steel plates. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Bill
Novice
Posts:1
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| 08/31/2006 8:24 PM |
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Just a point of intrest on the thickness of the leather of some of these gorgets I have seem recently. Hakim stated that 1/64 of an inch is equal to 1 ounce. The other night we measured thickness of gorgets using calipers. The gorget he failed was 15/64 outside layer 13/64 inside layer and then foam wrapped by light leather. To me this means it is almost double the standard required. Most of the other gorgets measured that night were very close to the same thickness.  Please let me now if my math is wrong.
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Hakim
Scholar
Posts:26
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| 08/31/2006 11:26 PM |
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Posted By Bill on 08-31-2006 8:24 PM Just a point of intrest on the thickness of the leather of some of these gorgets I have seem recently. Hakim stated that 1/64 of an inch is equal to 1 ounce. The other night we measured thickness of gorgets using calipers. The gorget he failed was 15/64 outside layer 13/64 inside layer and then foam wrapped by light leather. To me this means it is almost double the standard required. Most of the other gorgets measured that night were very close to the same thickness. Please let me now if my math is wrong.
Like Alvarro said "...The SCA minimums for rapier clearly state that gorgets must be rigid
for heavy rapier. They ALSO define rigid. To quote "Rigid Material:
puncture-resistant material that will not significantly flex, spread
apart, or deform under pressure..."... "( bolding done by me)
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Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
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Mat
Provost
Posts:123
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| 09/01/2006 12:44 AM |
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So by reading the above, I guess we need to come up with a set way to determine the rigidity of rigid material that meets armoring specs.
I'm not a marshal, nor a junior for that matter, but the thing to factor in I think is that leather gets broken in the more that it's used. It'll soften with sweat. It's like the difference between a new belt and an old belt. A new belt is usually stiff, an older belt is usually soft. I could use other comparisons of the like, but....
Another thing to be factored is the method of construction...
If say, the leather was hardened, it wouldn't have as much give. I can't recall the name of the process, but it's something along the lines of boiling the leather in wax and bending to shape? I'm not a leather worker, so don't quote me on that. You'd be better to ask Gwydion about leather work. He knows his-
And that brings me too my next point: Is the rigidity of a piece of armor tested when it's on or off a fighter? Obviously, a leather gorget will flex less if it's strapped on, snugly around a fighters neck. If it's off the neck, yeah, you can bend it in whichever direction you please!
The biggest factor I think is the amount of impact force rigid material can take, be it steel or leather. Even perforated plate can be considered a "gray zone." A perforated plate, from what I was told at the first event that I used my helm at, won't pass a punch test. It passed inspection, but seriously, so how is it tested?
Even then, blades have a life-span as well as masks; I don't see why gorgets would be an exception.
And for ANYBODY that decides to add plates to their gorgets, please Please PLEASE! Roll or fold the top edge over itself! I know it's a pain, but it's really easy to do! If you're like me, with minimal knowledge about making armor, it's as easy as drawing a line and working the edge over itself as far as you can with a pair of pliers, and then hammering it flat over a chunk of railroad track, then bending it to match the curvature of the collar!
The last thing I want to see is a slit throat due to an unrolled edge! I've seen people slit chunks out of their arm on a burred edge of 1/4" plate, so imagine what an unrolled edge will do to your throat. Even then on sheet metal, an un-burred edge has enough edge to cut the soft tissues of the neck.  |
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Git-r-dun! |
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Kieran Gunn
Free Scholar
Posts:46
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| 09/01/2006 6:43 AM |
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| How about we use our common sense? That is why there are Junior and Senior Marshals: In order to determine if the things we do and the things we use are safe. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:680
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| 09/01/2006 7:54 AM |
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There is no such thing as common sense.
BTW - metal plates added to leather gorgets that have sharp edges are, by definition within the rules, unsafe, and not allowed on the field. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Kallyn
Novice
Posts:8
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| 09/01/2006 8:55 AM |
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Posted By Bill on 08-31-2006 8:24 PM Just a point of intrest on the thickness of the leather of some of these gorgets I have seem recently. Hakim stated that 1/64 of an inch is equal to 1 ounce. The other night we measured thickness of gorgets using calipers. The gorget he failed was 15/64 outside layer 13/64 inside layer and then foam wrapped by light leather. To me this means it is almost double the standard required. Most of the other gorgets measured that night were very close to the same thickness. Please let me now if my math is wrong.
(1)Now if the leather was horse, it would lose any rigidity it had fairly soon. Some pre-dyed and treated leather will do the same thing, and pi-skin dosen't have any kind of rigidity in it. Even some ways of construction will determine how rigid it will be. The type of stitching/ rivets, if stitched, how was it stitched and what was used to stitch it (sinew, waxed thread, etc.).
(2)After about 3-5 years of steady use (used 4hrs a day, three days a week), then it might be starting to break down. I have explained how I would test leather gorgets in an earlier post.
(3)Very specifically, was it pre-treated and left, or was "Dubbin" (an oil-type of leather grease that softens the leather and makes it somewhat water-resistant), or was it sheened.
By the sounds of your measurements, that gorget was made out of 10-12 oz leather. How old is it, and how tightly stitched/ riveted together is it? Would it be possible to have a few pictures of different angles on a gorget for me?
Kallyn |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/01/2006 9:00 AM |
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So I was trying to stay out of this discussion any further but after Bill brought up the thickness issues I want to address another gorget.
Hakim, you inspected and passed the new gorget that Miles brought to practice a couple of weeks ago.
You looked at it, felt it and saw it was a very, very, stiff beeswaxed leather gorget. You passed it.
Last week I was going over armor and inspections on my students and I failed this very gorget, because I saw it physically on Miles. The gorget was not built for him, it was built for a woman who had a very different build then Miles does. When Miles had it on it didn't fit right and there were huge gaps all around his neck and shoulder area.
Remember it is not 'just' about how firm the gorget is, which seems to be the all important thing right now, it is also how it fits.
So Miles is going to have to do modifications to the gorget before I would pass it ... then again I'm only a 'recent' Junior Marshal as I've been reminded. Anyhow, that's all I've got to say right now, I'm off to Sept Crown. Bye all, hope to see a bunch of you there. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 09/01/2006 9:03 AM |
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Hi Kallyn
It is some kind of boot leather that the soles are made with as I recall.
The gorget is brand new. When I get back from Crown I can try to take photos of it from various angles etc. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Kallyn
Novice
Posts:8
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| 09/01/2006 9:03 AM |
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Posted By Mat on 09-01-2006 12:44 AM
So by reading the above, I guess we need to come up with a set way to determine the rigidity of rigid material that meets armoring specs.
I'm not a marshal, nor a junior for that matter, but the thing to factor in I think is that leather gets broken in the more that it's used. It'll soften with sweat. It's like the difference between a new belt and an old belt. A new belt is usually stiff, an older belt is usually soft. I could use other comparisons of the like, but....
Another thing to be factored is the method of construction...
If say, the leather was hardened, it wouldn't have as much give. I can't recall the name of the process, but it's something along the lines of boiling the leather in wax and bending to shape? I'm not a leather worker, so don't quote me on that. You'd be better to ask Gwydion about leather work. He knows his-
And that brings me too my next point: Is the rigidity of a piece of armor tested when it's on or off a fighter? Obviously, a leather gorget will flex less if it's strapped on, snugly around a fighters neck. If it's off the neck, yeah, you can bend it in whichever direction you please!
The biggest factor I think is the amount of impact force rigid material can take, be it steel or leather. Even perforated plate can be considered a "gray zone." A perforated plate, from what I was told at the first event that I used my helm at, won't pass a punch test. It passed inspection, but seriously, so how is it tested?
Even then, blades have a life-span as well as masks; I don't see why gorgets would be an exception.
And for ANYBODY that decides to add plates to their gorgets, please Please PLEASE! Roll or fold the top edge over itself! I know it's a pain, but it's really easy to do! If you're like me, with minimal knowledge about making armor, it's as easy as drawing a line and working the edge over itself as far as you can with a pair of pliers, and then hammering it flat over a chunk of railroad track, then bending it to match the curvature of the collar!
The last thing I want to see is a slit throat due to an unrolled edge! I've seen people slit chunks out of their arm on a burred edge of 1/4" plate, so imagine what an unrolled edge will do to your throat. Even then on sheet metal, an un-burred edge has enough edge to cut the soft tissues of the neck.
I have made a suggestion that a leather gorget should have a life span of 3-5 years. And that is with good use (minimun of 4 hrs a day, 3 days a week).
Kallyn |
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Kallyn
Novice
Posts:8
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| 09/01/2006 9:18 AM |
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Posted By Kieran Gunn on 09-01-2006 6:43 AM
How about we use our common sense? That is why there are Junior and Senior Marshals: In order to determine if the things we do and the things we use are safe. Hey Keiran,
I'm going to bite this one hard...
"Common Sense" isn't as common as it sounds. People take shortcuts to get to the end of what is being done. Safety means little to the shortcutters and use the letter of the rules to bend it to their way of thinking, making "Rule-makers" have to crack down even more. Semantics. Using the wording to avoid having to follow the spirit of the rules. Safety should be the first concern in any contact sport. Why people would want to jepordize their own is beyond me.
Kallyn
(Awaiting the resonses to come )
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Kieran Gunn
Free Scholar
Posts:46
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| 09/01/2006 11:27 AM |
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That is exactly my point Kallyn. This whole brouhaha from Clinton War was brought about because one senior marshall thought that certain gorgets were unsafe for rapier combat (A good common sense call), however the acceptable construction methods implicitly defined in the rules allowed for the giant outrage that ensued.
If you define rigid as being a material that does significatly flex when pressure is applied, the marshal can err on the side of caution when presented with a borderline piece of armor. It also would discouorage bad construction techniques such as a guy who bought a bunch of value village belts and weaved himself a gorget that was an inch thick but was still way too flexible and dangerous to wear. For those of you might remember I am talking about my first gorget 10 years ago. |
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