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Subject: Authorizing at Events
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LucianoUser is Offline
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08/17/2006 5:12 PM Alert 
Page 17, 3.1.6. This doesn't forbid fighting in a tournament the event/day you were authorized. Is this an intentional change or an oversight? Luciano
jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/19/2006 12:11 AM Alert 
Intentional

Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
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Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
DormouseUser is Offline
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08/19/2006 9:39 PM Alert 
Why???

I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.

--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004)
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08/20/2006 8:06 AM Alert 
I assume you are asking, why allow someone to fight in a tournament that occurrs during the same event in which they were authorized, yes? I might ask - why not?

Actually, let me ask this. What was the original intent of the rule that you could not fight during an event that you authorized at? I had always been thinking that it was related to people being authorized too quickly - just to "get them on the field". Is this basically correct?

Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
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Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
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08/20/2006 7:12 PM Alert 
Basically that, and makin' people responsible to make sure that their authorization is curent before they go to an event.  And also to prevent the, I'm not adult ewnought to keep track, or carry my authorization card with me.

Not to mention the 'I can't get authoized at home cause I'm not safe' and I can go to an event and get someone who doesn't know me to authorize me just so I won't have to not fight.

If you have a better solution for these problems I certain willin' to entertain it.

Dormouse

I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.

--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004)
jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/21/2006 9:52 AM Alert 
How does this sound?

1.       It is the fighter’s responsibility to ensure that they have a current authorization, prior to attending an event where they plan to participate in rapier combat activities.

2.       Authorizations at events are discouraged, due to the length of time needed to fulfill the basic testing requirements.  However, if there is a valid need for this to occur, the following conditions must be met:

a.       Valid reason from fighter as to why authorization was not able to be performed in local area, or prior to the event (such as: no local authorizing marshals, cannot sync schedule with a local, or regional, authorizing marshal)

b.       Fighter must contact a warranted marshal that will agree to perform the authorization, and arrange for a time and place that this will be handled, as well as anything else needed to conduct the authorization.

c.       If the fighter is unknown to the Warranting Marshal, the authorization process may take a longer amount of time, in order to judge their ability to remain safe on the field, and meet the basic requirements for authorization. 

d.       The authorization process is not to be circumvented just to “get the fighter on the field”.  This means that adequate time for the authorization process, as outlined within these rules, should be allowed for prior to closing of the Lists for any rapier tournament that the fighter/marshal wishes to participate in.

e.       Holding a practice tournament at an event to get around this rule is not allowed.



Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
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Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
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08/21/2006 7:03 PM Alert 
Sounds good.

I'd pllace a little more emphasis in 2b that this *must* be arranged before the event.

I'm still not keen on lettin' folks that authorize at an event fight in the tournament.

But it's your rules, do what you want.

Dormouse

I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.

--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004)
RaoulUser is Offline
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08/21/2006 7:48 PM Alert 
It looks like too many rules to me. It makes the situation too complicated. Either allow it or don't, I personally don't care either way, but make the rule as simple as possible.

Raoul

"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos
jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/22/2006 1:54 PM Alert 
It is too many rules. Given conversations with His Majesty, I have a pretty good feeling that this needs to be allowed. However, I do not want to open it up completely so that we get jackasses on the field again, that dont have the slightest clue as to what they are doing.

My intent is to make the rules as consise and "short" as possible. But I am also a realist, and we have to ensure that the rules cover not only the bare needs, but that they also account for the lowest common denominator.


Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
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Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
RaoulUser is Offline
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08/22/2006 2:31 PM Alert 
how about this? The rule states that its allowed. The RMH also states that the weapons safety component of authorization should take 30 to 60 minutes. Personally, I know the only way I'd be able to commit that much time at an event to an authorization is if it was prearranged and to be honest I likely wouldn't be able to fit in. As long as all the senior marshals are using similar procedures for authorizing there shouldn't be a problem.

Perhaps instead of more rules we need more education. Marshalling clinics to ensure the marshals are all on the same page?

Raoul

"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos
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08/22/2006 6:34 PM Alert 
There will be no separate RMH, but I understand what you are saying.

To me, the "rules" and the content currently in the RMH are both still the rules. If we make this section shorter, and basically add it into the marshals section, what are we really gaining? Just want to be clear on what it is that you are seeing that concerns you.

Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
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Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
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08/22/2006 6:52 PM Alert 
Posted By jgreywolf on 08-22-2006 1:54 PM
It is too many rules. Given conversations with His Majesty, I have a pretty good feeling that this needs to be allowed. However, I do not want to open it up completely so that we get jackasses on the field again, that dont have the slightest clue as to what they are doing.

My intent is to make the rules as consise and "short" as possible. But I am also a realist, and we have to ensure that the rules cover not only the bare needs, but that they also account for the lowest common denominator.



No, it does not *need* to be allowed.

I'll leave it at that.

Dormouse


I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.

--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004)
RaoulUser is Offline
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08/22/2006 7:14 PM Alert 
your proposed 2. above lists 5 points:

(a) is too subjective to be practical.
(b) does not need to be listed because it would not be possible to be authorized without contacting a marshal
(c) is unnecessary. The marshals should be thorough with all their authorizations. We shouldn't need to say "be extra thorough with some"
(d) also should not be necessary. The purpose of authorizations is safety. Rushing it serves no one.
(e) Rules that say "don't break the rules" sound dumb.

I realize that the prohibition on authorizations at events came about because of the pressure on a marshal to let people fight when they've travelled to an event and some people exploited that. Rather than making a rule, I think its better to educate the marshals to ensure they know how to handle these situations.

Raoul

"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos
jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/22/2006 10:29 PM Alert 
Posted By Raoul on 08-22-2006 7:14 PM
your proposed 2. above lists 5 points:

(a) is too subjective to be practical.
(b) does not need to be listed because it would not be possible to be authorized without contacting a marshal
(c) is unnecessary. The marshals should be thorough with all their authorizations. We shouldn't need to say "be extra thorough with some"
(d) also should not be necessary. The purpose of authorizations is safety. Rushing it serves no one.
(e) Rules that say "don't break the rules" sound dumb.

I realize that the prohibition on authorizations at events came about because of the pressure on a marshal to let people fight when they've travelled to an event and some people exploited that. Rather than making a rule, I think its better to educate the marshals to ensure they know how to handle these situations.

Raoul

(a) agreed.  Thought about that while writing it down - couldnt come up with anything better, left it in for commentary.  Like this

(b) disagree. The point here is so the fighter knows that unless they make these arrangements beforehand, they cannot expect to be authorized at an event. Added clarification.

(c) disagree - again, this item is not intended for the marshals.  It is intended to ensure expectations are set accordingly for the fighter.  Added clarification.

(d) and (e) - moved to the marshal section.

Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
jgreywolfUser is Offline
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08/25/2006 6:02 PM Alert 
done

Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest
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