SimonFencer
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| 09/18/2007 9:45 AM |
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Posted By mahee_of_acre on 09-17-2007 9:40 PM
I agree, shell guards are period. A padded glove, not a bad idea. I would always worry that I would not feel a shot through it. But I guess with enough training you could learn the feel of it.
I guess with this it becomes a case of if you think you felt it, take it, and let you opponent call it back. |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Eira
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Posts:79
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| 09/18/2007 10:07 AM |
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I've currently got gloves /w extra leather on the back of the hand and have also used gloves /w extra leather and padding as well. I have found that I've had no issues feeling shots to those areas, I just don't get bruises  |
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Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
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Luciano
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Posts:143
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| 09/18/2007 12:15 PM |
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I know that when Albert was KRM, Pata's, and punch dagger type things, were banned. I haven't seen that ruling reversed, nor reiterated since then.
Luciano |
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Guillemin
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Posts:120
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| 09/18/2007 9:45 PM |
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| So, if we don't allow armouring the hand, why do we allow armouring the guard? I once met a fighter with the cheap, wide open Hanwei hilts that are everywhere and he had laced a bit of leather over the opening to protect his hand. I believe it was at a May Crown some years ago. Is this legal, and if so, what is the difference? |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Kristophe
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Posts:77
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| 09/18/2007 11:34 PM |
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"he had laced a bit of leather over the opening to protect his hand."
If the leather is hit does he lose the hand (in which case the leather acting only as a bit of protection) or does he continue fighting (treating the leather as if it were impenetrable)?
This brings to mind a conversation I had with Don William B. a while back. He pointed out (rightly so) that most times a thrust 'pings' off of a swept hilt because of the blunt. A sharp by it's nature would have deflected and continued forward. So technically unless we're using full cuphilts or pappenheimers we should really be considering hits stopped by the hilt furniture as possible wounds. Of course, the severity of such a wound is what's being debated here.
EDIT: Must lurn to spel proprly.
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mahee_of_acre
Scholar
Posts:26
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| 09/19/2007 5:53 AM |
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| Exactly. Why is it legal to add armor to your furniture, and not your hand? This is getting to be a good discussion. Thank you. |
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Your servant,
mahee |
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Luciano
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Posts:143
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| 09/19/2007 12:24 PM |
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Assuming that people are talking about my post as saying that we don't allow armoring the hand, that is not what I was trying to say, nor what I believe that Albert was worried about.
You can armor the hand. Just make sure you call shots to it as if it was unarmored.
The Pata and other punch dagger type things were banned because of the expected way they would be used. People would be punching at their opponents with a dagger on their hand. It was decided that that could not be done safely, so the items were banned.
Also note that the decision hasn't been reiterated in several years. The current KRM might allow you to use it.
Luciano
ps. I would personally hope that the KRM would not allow the use of these, but that's just me. I think we should stick with rapier and other European weapons used with the rapier. Plus, I wouldn't want to see anyone using Voldo(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voldo) as an example of what you should do, or more importantly, wear.  |
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Eira
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Posts:79
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| 09/19/2007 9:27 PM |
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Posted By Luciano on 09-19-2007 12:24 PM Plus, I wouldn't want to see anyone using Voldo(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voldo) as an example of what you should do, or more importantly, wear.
Pfft. Why would anyone wanna utilize Voldo as a role model when the game creators kindly provided us /w Raphael in one of the later games. He's actually got a rapier and a whole slew of weapons that you could actually argue to be period.
Yeah I just let out my inner geek.  |
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Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
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Luciano
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Posts:143
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| 09/20/2007 9:31 PM |
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Yeah, but have you ever actually watched what Raphael does when he fights? He leads with his body, while not keeping his sword in front of himself. He'd be easy meat for a counterthrust.
Luciano |
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Guillemin
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Posts:120
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| 09/23/2007 12:13 PM |
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Kristophe,
I believe he kept the hand when the leather was hit. I don't know how you could call blows though. Maybe if you thought the leather had been hit? It impairs your blow calling and puts your opponent at a disadvantage, imho. It's the same thing with using torso armour that is much thicker than what we require, in my opinion. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Kristophe
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Posts:77
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| 09/23/2007 3:02 PM |
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"I believe he kept the hand when the leather was hit. I don't know how you could call blows though. Maybe if you thought the leather had been hit? It impairs your blow calling and puts your opponent at a disadvantage, imho. It's the same thing with using torso armour that is much thicker than what we require, in my opinion."
I'm not in disagreement - I was just thinking that if he took any hit to the hand/hilt as a loss then it's not like it would affect the outcome of a bout substantially. But if he treats the leather as 'impenetrable' then it definately raises some concerns. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:682
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| 09/24/2007 12:15 PM |
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I do not see any reason for concern in a fighter adding "protection" to a hilt, and then that fighter not giving up their hand when that area of the hilt takes a a hit. to me it is the same thing as if the hilt had been made that way originally. Trying to do anything else is just going to add unneccessary confusion to fights.
BTW - a rapier blade with no blunt on the end would not always just deflect and slide through the hilt to hit the hand - sometimes yes - but not always. Especially if you actually rotate your wrist to block out such attacks 
And no - I am not going to allow anyone to use anything that acts as a "punch dagger", for exactly the reason(s) that Luciano mentioned. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Guillemin
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Posts:120
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| 09/24/2007 11:44 PM |
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| So why not allow armour on the back of the hand or knuckles or something similar? Armour that acts as armour. It's very close to the same thing, in the overall scheme of things. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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warwick
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Posts:123
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| 09/25/2007 12:22 AM |
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*Tongue firmly in cheek disclaimer
Hell let's go for the whole arm!
In fact - I'm gonna go get me a breastplate!
Since it's civilian combat you could cover off "armoured" hands (and even breastplates) under your TRPs by making hand and torso shots invalid.
W
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Guillemin
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Posts:120
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| 09/25/2007 11:37 PM |
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While we're at it we could just say we're highlanders and only take head shots...
I'd like to make it clear that I don't think armour that acts as armour is ever a good idea, but I'm just trying to put my earlier comment in context. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Sebastien
Has a lot to say...
Posts:207
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| 09/26/2007 11:21 AM |
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Simple answer -
Per corperate Rapier Marshal's Handbook - Under conventions - Rule 4.a
"In judging blows, all fighters are presumed to be wearing comman civil attire of the period, not armour."
So if you put on armour and call to match the rule then that is fine. If you put on armour and expect it to be treated as armour you are wrong. |
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Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
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mahee_of_acre
Scholar
Posts:26
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| 09/26/2007 8:37 PM |
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So, what guards do you feel/know are period guards?
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Your servant,
mahee |
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Sebastien
Has a lot to say...
Posts:207
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| 09/27/2007 9:03 AM |
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| Define period first. Some people argue I'm not in period because my persona is 1635. If anyone wants to get into the arguement we can go to a different thread. My guards are appropriate for my persona, they are a darkwood 3 ring and a papenhiemer guard. They are closed guards that protect my hands well which is very important to me. |
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Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
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