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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 09/20/2006 11:33 PM |
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I would add another to your list of when people hit hard. There may be plenty of training, but if a fighter is improperly taught he/she can develop a style which inherently leads to hard hits. Control and safety before speed and victory!!! This is often related to a small amount of training, but experienced fencers, if improperly taught from the beginning and not correctred on the way, can develop the same or even worse habits than newbies. This is exacerbated by tourney excitement, or whatever you wanna call it, and can lead to injuries. It's not just the new guys
This leads us back to a key point which much be raised in any discussion about hard hitting. All fighters, regardless of experience, must be willing to approach an opponent after a fight and ask if they recognized a hard shot they threw. And if that doesn't resolve the conflict or don't recognize the shot for what it was, they must also be willing to approach a marshal if they feel it necessary. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Romeo13
Free Scholar
Posts:36
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| 09/21/2006 12:30 AM |
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Posted By Guillemin on 09-20-2006 11:33 PM
I would add another to your list of when people hit hard. There may be plenty of training, but if a fighter is improperly taught he/she can develop a style which inherently leads to hard hits. Control and safety before speed and victory!!! This is often related to a small amount of training, but experienced fencers, if improperly taught from the beginning and not correctred on the way, can develop the same or even worse habits than newbies. This is exacerbated by tourney excitement, or whatever you wanna call it, and can lead to injuries. It's not just the new guys
This leads us back to a key point which much be raised in any discussion about hard hitting. All fighters, regardless of experience, must be willing to approach an opponent after a fight and ask if they recognized a hard shot they threw. And if that doesn't resolve the conflict or don't recognize the shot for what it was, they must also be willing to approach a marshal if they feel it necessary.
I aggree, but it can be poor form on either side which leads to a hard hit...
I have a couple of people where I was practicing, who are trying things which lead to their driving their body onto your sword...
Scenario... They are fighting right handed, single sword, but with there OFF hand in the forward position... ie... left hand and foot forward...
They then wait for a thrust and try to parry your blade offhand, while in single time, cross stepping (bringing their sword, in their right hand forward, pivoting their body). and then in a second beat thrust to the outside ....
Problem is, if they miss the offhand parry, they are already driving themselves onto your sword..... because you gained Tempo....
Now.... add in that I fight Left handed at least half the time, which makes their offhand parry even harder to accomplish.... because they have to cross their entire body to take my blade.... and they are stepping in in single time... directly into my thrust to their RIGHT shoulder... and pivoting... (which also adds to their bodies momentum...)....
They then complain that I "hit them hard"..... and as two of those who are working on this tactic are MARTIALS... you begin to see the conumbrum that some in the SCA are in....
another scenario.... you take a leg.... the person sits down... is using Rapier and dagger with the dagger in a high guard position.... and then, as you thrust, uses the dagger to parry DOWN forcing your rapier into their leg.... which is splayed out in front of them (they are sitting, not kneeling....)... They are forcing your blade into a body part which is many inches, if not a foot, closer to you than your origional thrust would have hit.... they then play martyr about the hit..... (and the amazing thing??? this happened to me Twice in about 30 seconds with the same person....)....
Effect of this??? You begin to second guess yourself.... Am I hitting hard??? Is my style at fault??? So you slow down... WHICH MAKES THEM MORE EFFECTIVE WITH A SUBSTANDARD STYLE!!!!! Leading them to believe that they are fencing better, thus validating the tactic.... and handicaps YOU when you once again start to fight with real fencers....
But then you realize.... that it is only a couple of individuals you seem to have problems with.... the KRM? no issues... other martials??? fine... people who have been fencing for many years COMPLIMENTING you on your measure and calibration....
and No.... these things did not happen in your kingdom... I am from elsewhere....
BUT, I am the one Blayde was talking about to begin this thread..... and for those of us who travel, it can become an issue anywhere.... |
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Blayde
Free Scholar
Posts:56
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| 09/21/2006 8:19 AM |
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I spent last weekend fighting with a group outside the SCA that takes a more realistic approach to rapier. They require a 4" bend in the blade for the hit to be legitimate as do many of the WMA crowd. Often, less of a bend will do, but they expect the shot to be hard enough to penetrate. No one got hurt or severely bruised all weekend to my knowledge, and I was bending my blade into people.
I'm amazed at the difference in standards. Of course, I wasn't punching either. That's one of the key differences in safe and not safe. This thread started because IMO some people complain at the slightest pain. I'm not talking about the very hard shots that did or could have injured someone. And yes, if a fighter isn't even aware they are throwing consistently hard shots, then they at the very least need a talking to. But, if there is a lightweight out there that perceives everything as hard...and worse case as Romeo pointed out, they are causing many of the hardshots themselves by stepping into lunges, then NASA...we have a problem. Unfortunately, I not only believe, but know there are entire schools if not Kingdoms where the slightest hard shot becomes an issue. Again I say, if it didn't injure you...or you had something to do with it...take the hit. If someone is punching...talk to them about their technique...God knows I do. But, if the hit was properly executed, but a little stiff....let it go. It happens.
That all being said, I profusely apologize for any hard hits I deliver when playing in the SCA. Why? Because I know there many folks who are here to be hit very lightly. I can usually recognize them, but sometimes I can't. That's the hard part. 
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 09/22/2006 1:26 PM |
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Heh.. the four inch bend rule is a bit scary. The groups that use that rule tend to use much lighter blades (double-wide epees, or the new almost-epee rapiers that one company is making.) A four inch bend in a double-wide del tin is gonna hurt...if you're lucky. A four inch bend in some of the new hanwei blades will easily break a rib.
I watched a well-known WMA instructor demonstrating a lunge on someone, and trying to put a four inch bend in...the wince on the poor victims face was painful to watch. Painful, but funny. 
Blades are not standard...but I do think calibration should be standard. It shouldn't hurt except for quirks that are part of the process, but you should know you lost...either with a steady touch, or a gentle one that obviously illustrates control (choice.) |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Blayde
Free Scholar
Posts:56
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| 09/22/2006 1:58 PM |
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Alvarro,
They were using del-tins and schlagers, but honestly, they weren't hitting with four inch bends. Their real standard is a touch that woud have penetrated, not just grazed skin. One of them mentioned the 4" rule, but I don't think they were sticking to it.
What they were doing was ensuring a solid hit...not a gaming hit...like we see in the SCA. One of the things I do to avoid hitting hard in the sca is I tend to flick. I hate doing it, and a lot of shots aren't taken by people prior to me taking a more direct approach. But, when fighting with someone I don't know, it's part of my calibration process. Most people don't like their head rocked, and since I like taking head shots, I have to do it as gently as possible.
Yeah, those Hanwei blades can be scary. Stock triplette blades are pretty scary too. I haven't bought any in a while, but my first few were rebar. Ouch! |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 09/22/2006 2:49 PM |
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I've heard some areas of the SCA, particularily the east, are...uhm...let's be polite. They are "sensitive" to contact. I'd hoped that was a one-area kind of thing.
The heavies used to have a way to calibrate using a post and a bowling ball, and measuring how far off you could hit it. Theory being you could standardize all around with real numbers, not impressions. Wonder if we could do that somehow. I love the An Tir standard, the average blow and blow calling is pretty good, but I'll never forget some of the crap I ran into at KWAR a few years ago. |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Jon Barber
Scholar
Posts:25
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| 09/23/2006 2:01 AM |
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Randy, he's talking about Steve Ficke's group. They don't actually require a 4 inch bend (it might be worded that way, but practice doesn't bear it out) though they do require a solid hit - something like what you and I would expect. Something that might well, say, penetrate an unarmored body the way some of the manuals show but toned down slightly.
The East - don't talk to me about SCA calibration in the NE US. Crap crap crap. |
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