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Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 08/28/2006 12:26 PM |
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Blayde m'man.. I have made statements in this thread.. and others.. If I choose to applaud someone for making sense.. what of it.
"Oh, and Cordell, those who lack the courage to do the deed themselves are often found clapping when someone braver than themselves steps up. If you have something to say...say it. Don't chime in like a cronie. Poor form...very poor form."
And sometimes, those who feel that repeating what someone has said is somewhat redundant, applaud a clear thought they agree with.
Wanna talk bad form??
I have not made derogatory statements directed at anyone here, including yourself. So before you laud yourself for superior penmanship, and eloquence, read what you write. You make an attacking statements directed at me.. who never has directed it at you. I had hoped this would be a discussion and not a flame war. But meh.. go figure.
So as I stoop..
Get over yourself and leave the discussion to the topic..
I think, given lots of hours of conversation and coffee, or beer as situation demands.. we'd find that we could come to a consensus, or at least an understanding to disagree...
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Blayde
Free Scholar
Posts:56
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| 08/28/2006 1:42 PM |
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I have to do this Raoul
*clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap,*
Thankyou.
Give me a break! That's your explanation! So, yeah, I'm ready to buy that bridge for your asking price. Where exactly was it and how good is the view?
If I choose to applaud someone for making sense.. what of it
You mean applauding a put down? How many claps are required?
So if I were to say that Raoul doesn't have a clue and no one here agrees with him because he's not cool like the rest of us and he's not spouting the company line. And then you came up with the above response then he shouldn't take it as an insult.
Hey, live in your own world man. It's all good. It's your right.
Bottom line, is I was on topic..nothing but topic. Raoul jumped off topic into a personal attack and an attempt to discredit me and make fun of me. You added to it and now you won't take responsibility for it. Take responsibility for your remarks as you should for a hard hit you charged into and you'll have my respect.
You wanna talk beer, conversation, and consensus....start by respecting each others opinioins whether delivered bluntly or passive agressively. I can be about as blunt as a trashcan alarm clock thrown across the floor of a bootcamp barracks, but I tell it like I see it.
When someone tries to make fun at my expense, I'm gonna call them on it.
So back on topic without sarcasm or put down, I still say there's a cultural problem. Deny it or address it. Do you believe there is or is not a cultural tendency to complain about hits that did not cause injury?
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Siobhan
Novice
Posts:6
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| 08/28/2006 3:10 PM |
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Posted By Blayde on 08-28-2006 1:42 PM
You mean applauding a put down? How many claps are required?
So
if I were to say that Raoul doesn't have a clue and no one here agrees
with him because he's not cool like the rest of us and he's not
spouting the company line. And then you came up with the above response
then he shouldn't take it as an insult.
Hey, live in your own world man. It's all good. It's your right.
Bottom
line, is I was on topic..nothing but topic. Raoul jumped off topic into
a personal attack and an attempt to dicredit me and make fun of me. You
added to it and now you won't take responsibility for it. Take
responsibility for your remarks as you should for a hard hit you
charged into and you'll have my respect.
And I think that the other guy applauded simply because Raoul
summarized that yes, it is somewhat a contact sport, very concisely in
one short paragraph. That yes, we should expect to come away with
bruises once and a while, as in any sport.
*shrugs* just some thoughts. 
Siobhan.
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Siobhan
~Man @ Arms to HE Roxanne Delaroche
Myrgan Wood, Avacal |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 08/28/2006 3:57 PM |
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Blayde,
Raoul jumped off topic into a personal attack and an attempt to discredit me and make fun of me.
I did? How? I only pointed out:
That we have had this discussion on this forum before. No insult to you there.
That your tone in your original message wasn't conducive to having it heard. Friendly advice, no insult.
Maybe this helps illustrate my point to you. Sometimes how you say something is as important as what you have to say. I was trying to to point out, in a less inflammatory way, that you have a valid point.
So I've got two more pieces of advice for you:
Civility does not equal passive aggressive.
Don't go looking for attacks where none exist. You'll lose what allies you might have had.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 08/28/2006 4:53 PM |
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Just to clarify.. the applause was for this section of Raoul's post...
"That said, here's what I think. We play that the lightest touch is all that is required for a valid touch. Nowhere does it say that anything harder than that is invalid. Rapier is a contact sport and bruises should not be unexpected. We should aim to land with the least force required but accept the fact that there will be harder hits. Especially if you are someone who tends to 'advance agressively'.
Raoul "
As far as the rest goes.. believe what ya want.. by your response to my rebut to your offense at my applause, I see your expecting negativity.. So, I'm done defending the undefendable.. Doesn't matter what I say at this point.. seems you'll have me "figured" out all on your own.
Good luck with that. |
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Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 08/28/2006 4:59 PM |
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Well this string is getting near "fibreglass vs steel" proportions!
My tuppence (and you are very welcome to ignore my post, no hard feelings to anyone):
I get "Fairy touches"... which I accept (and Henry, you soooo deliver the odd one there )
I get "Stout" touches... which I accept
I get "Gacked" from time to time...which I accept
I deliver the occasional "fairy touch"... and if my opponent doesn't accept it, I hit a little harder which leads to:
Me delivering a "stout" touch...which everyone I fight accepts...well "almost" everyone...
and yes, I've "gacked" some folks, sometimes because I reacted instead of responded, and ...well, "Mea Culpa" there (sorry again to those I've gacked)...othertimes because my foe threw themselves on my blade in a blatent attempt to create European shish-kabob...s#it happens...then I apologize , take back the hit, apologize again...then offer to refight or I'll take a loss (I know, I know, they're at fault as well, but I should always be in control of my blade).
I've had 2 broken ribs, a torn rotator cuff and 2 minor concussions from hard hits... but that's the chance you take. it's a martial art, and sometimes bad hits happen.
Personally, I like the "stout" hits... not enough to hurt, but enough to let you know you were touched...none of the, "My tailer is going to hate you" BS.
To those of you responding here... right on.
to those of you starting a fight... sigh, let's settle differences on the field, and keep this discussion civil, because it is a good topic.
Gwydion
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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Blayde
Free Scholar
Posts:56
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| 08/28/2006 5:05 PM |
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Raoul,
Sorry, gotta disagree. If you hadn't started the post by "Is that an echo?, you may have convinced me your true intentions were noble. However, there's no way to dismiss something as condescending as your opening remark without the rest being looked at in the same light.
Maybe not taking responsibility for one's own actions is an epidemic. Why is it so hard to say, yeah, I shouldn't have made that remark. But, that would require an apology, and OMG, what would happen to the fabric of the universe then? Hey, I'm a smartass, but atleast when I'm being one, I own up. It won't kill you...I swear. I've done it numerous times. See, right there I'm being a smart ass.
I'm sure your buddies will agree with you, so no worries. My advice back is don't be condescending and expect the rest of your remarks to be taken at face value.
Ok, so now we've both given each other advice. Before we give any more advice, I think we should have a dance. Then we can drink a beer or two, and if you have any more advice, I'll be happy to listen. I'm teaching a class at KWAR in a couple of weeks. I invite all of you to come down for that. I'll be available after class for discussion and sparring. If not, I'll make it a point to fly in for an event in the near future. I'd be happy to dance with anyone who's game. Until then, let's address the subject, and not the person.
Thanks much.
Edited:
Gwydion, we were writing at the same time....right on and good for you.
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 08/28/2006 10:00 PM |
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Blayde,
My opening line of "Is that an echo?" was not aimed at you and was not meant to be condescending to anyone. I regret that you interpreted it that way.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/28/2006 11:17 PM |
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This is a gentle reminder to all remember what this entier forum is about. It is about discussion of topics related to swordplay. Let's keep that in mind as we leave messages to each other, and maintain an atmosphere of respect here.
You dont have to agree. You dont even have to like someone. But I am asking that you respect your community, and the members of same. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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frprepairman
Scholar
Posts:23
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| 09/06/2006 7:01 PM |
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Well, Blayde, I commend you for creating a very lively discussion. However, I must totally disagree with your logic. I have hit hard at times, and been hit hard by others. Mostly, it is not intentional and people apologize for hitting too hard. I certainly apologize and feel very badly when I hurt or bruise another. I DO NOT think this game can not be played gently, and believe bruises and pain should be avoided. As for what the heavies think of us, I don't care. I am not here to impress them. I am here to enjoy a fun sport and great interactions with my friends. If it would help you impress the hevies, I would be glad to give you a swift kick to the groin next time we fight. Always glad to assist.
I would prefer to think people will calabrate properly, and will try not to hurt others. If a chance blow causes pain and brusing then apologize and try to hit lighter. It truely distrubs me to hear people talking as though a rough hit should just be "shaken off". To hear people called whiners for complaining and going through channels to resolve an ongoing problem is even more disturbing. I have told people not to fight against people who repeatedly hit too hard, and will refuse to fight such a person myself. If that means yealding a fight in tourny to someone who I refuse to fight in practice, then so be it. If people stop fighting problem hitters, then they will only fight with other problem hitters and the rest of us can focus on our games.
This is not karate, or football, and contact should be very limited. The only contact should be when the tip touches your opponent. Many of the hard hits I have observed come from poor technique, such as straight arming and diving in with too much forward comittment. A small bend at the elbow and a modicum of control will do a lot to eliviate consistently hitting hard. I think anyone who has a reputation of hitting hard should look at how they play, and consider if this is the sport for them.
Don Indigo Hall, OWS |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:125
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| 09/06/2006 10:24 PM |
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It's a contact sport.
I believe our ideal, our goal, is perfect blade control, at speed.
Personally, I don't have perfect blade control at my top speed, so I slow down.
I've never recieved one of those evil looking zombie bruises, much less a contusion or laceration or broken bone. That includes the sidesword experiment.
I like a stiff shot. I like a shot that would have in reality done some damage. Since a sharp rapier does damage very easily, it certainly doesn't have to be bone-jarring. We've all been pezzed, we've all been bruised. We al lknow how to deal with it - acknowledge it, talk to them about it if needed, continue on. Invariably it was a flaw of one or both parties.
I call back fairy touches. I sneer at those who call them good (kidding!!). I flex when people stupidly charge into my blade, but I don't apologise for the shot - I point out their flaw. This is a result of years of fighting in the sca and just not accepting any of the (thankfully rare) rule mongering or ego farts.
And i'm flawed as well of course. We all are. "Pardon lord that was a bit stiff I think." "Shan't bruise I don't think m'lord, carry on!". Wouldn't it be great if they were all like that? But bodies in motion have a lot of energy and factors add up and wham - there's an owie.
If Blayde's friend is the victim of a witch hunt then obviously there is more going on.
Maybe he's hitting harder than these fighters are used to. If that's the case and he fights with them regularly, he should consider toning it down. Maybe slow down? If he's coming at it from a different mindset than they are it is he who should respect the group's mindset rather than the opposite, at least when he is fighting with them.
There is also the stigma of being a newcomer with skills, esp one with the ego to to match the skills (not saying that in a negative way - god knows I'm not one to throw stones in that arena). Is he wiping the walls with people? If he is I hope he does so with respect.
So Blayde, while your complaint is not a new one, and nor is the response, I would like to believe that the issue has improved consistently over the years since we started out with epees. Or perhaps it's evolved and is continuing to evolve. Ideally we ALL own up to our flaws, and demand others do the same. Accept flaws in others and help them improve, and they do the same for you.
Hey Blayde and Tora if you're ever up in Vancouver BC we hold the Lionsgate practice Thursday nights in New Westminster. Give me a shout if you can ever make it up. I'd love it if Tora could teach a class.
Warwick
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 09/07/2006 1:40 AM |
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Sweet, I think this is the first IKA post on this forum. It's definetly growing.
An Tir, for the most part, tends to like "clean" hits. Other kingdoms...My KWAR experience a few years ago was a bit of an eye-opener for me. What's normal here can be seen as a bit thuggish elsewhere. Even with that, we have definite stout hitters. Mostly...gosh, it's funny, but the people who complain about the hard shots tend to be the people who throw the hard shots. Some people like to drive in, explode at the first possible opening, and rely on speed to land the first touch. And they gack people, and they get gacked back. The exceptions to this are notable for their rarity.
I'm speaking as someone who, in one tournament, took a shot so hard that I got a concussion and the resulting dent failed my mask, AND took a shot to the throat so hard that I was on liquids for a week because I couldn't swallow. Both were my fault for charging in without dealing with the opposing blade.
In my WMA school we have a real distinction in how people throw and call blows. The line is between people who have worked with a sharp rapier against a chunk of meat with thick skin, and those who haven't. We try to get everyone poking the pork sides. It makes for very realistic fighters. |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:105
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| 09/07/2006 10:49 AM |
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Hey Blayde and Tora if you're ever up in Vancouver BC we hold the Lionsgate practice Thursday nights in New Westminster. Give me a shout if you can ever make it up. I'd love it if Tora could teach a class.
Warwick
Ah, it pains me. I make it a point to help anyone who asks, and I try and get out to any practice that requests I drop by but as of this week I am a full-time student again. Between that and work it gets pretty dicey trying to get that far north in the middle of the week. If you guys ever meet at all on the weekends let me know and you can be assured that we'll find a day that works.
"It truely distrubs me to hear people talking as though a rough hit should just be "shaken off". To hear people called whiners for complaining and going through channels to resolve an ongoing problem is even more disturbing."
Though perhaps I'm taking it out of context, I can't say I agree with a part of what Indigo said. There is indeed a time when you should just shake it off. Whether in tournament or practice, if I am in the midst of a spar with someone I won't even bother mentioning a hard hit they deliver unless it's a part of a pattern. The problem exists with those folks who bother to go to the marshals for an official report every time it happens with whomever they happen to be sparring with--but particularly with those they are not perhaps on the best of terms with. I haven't found it to be too much of a problem up here, but there are other kingdoms... Again, if it's a pattern that's one thing, but I'm speaking strictly about those who really need to examine whether or not they should invest in a thicker skin. In this art you ARE going to get the occasional hard shot, there is no escaping it, so if this is too much to accept for some folks then perhaps they may want to reassess whether this is really the art form for them.
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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Tabby
Free Scholar
Posts:37
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| 09/07/2006 11:29 AM |
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Hello Everyone--it's been too long!
To answer the original question as succinctly as my verbose self can: Yes, rapier is a contact sport. If we do not make contact, we are not fighting rapier, we are only dancing around.
Cheers!
Lady Tabytha Morgan/Tanayle Haga |
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Lady Tabytha Morgan/Tanayle Haga
"There is no sin, except stupidity"
--Oscar Wilde |
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Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 09/07/2006 7:05 PM |
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| Blayde, it sounds like the problem isn't that people can't take hits, it's that they are complaining about you to the marshal without trying to talk things out with you first. Is that correct? If so, yep, it's a bit of a problem, but by no means with the majority of An Tir. |
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Blayde
Free Scholar
Posts:56
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| 09/08/2006 11:59 AM |
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I like the fact that this conversation is now going in the direction it should have from the start.
My friend whom I originally spoke of does hit stouter than the group he is fencing with, but that's because the group has decided they are a dance troup rather than a fencing group. And I'd say he's a newcomer with skills who is wiping the floor with most of them. That being said, the real problem is the approach that many fencers take and that seems to be the cultural norm.
Morleigh hit the nail on the head pretty good. Far too many folks would rather get together after events and in their own circles and bad talk those who wipe the floor with them. After they've all convinced themselves that so and so is a hard hitter, the first hard hit they get from that person results in a major drama queen episode of either running to the marshal or writing a secret letter to the pincipality or higher rapier marshall.
Most of those types of events aren't resolved or even noted on the field. I've had this happen to me. Tora has dealt with it, and I have students and fellow Tigers dealing with this culture of passive aggression. It's really sad.
For those of you who continue to defend calibration....hey, I'm on your side. I'm always teaching calibration and softer touches. I've had separated ribs, a black eye this year, waffle marks on my forehead, smashed fingers, etc. But, I don't go complaining the first time someone hits me a little stout. Those are the people I'm talking about. If you're not one of them, don't be offended. If you are, take a look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions. Talk it out on the field, and don't be one of those people who sit around and convince each other that the guy killing you over and over is hitting you hard consistantly. What the person is doing is hitting you consistantly, your ego is more bruised than your body, and you need to realize the difference. Find out how to improve your game.
If someone hits a bit too hard for you, find people to play with that would rather dance than fight. There's lot of them out there.
I wish slowing down was the answer, and it is with fighters who are slow. However, like someone above said, some of the complainers are actually very fast, and you have to fight at their level. When they launch themselves at you going 90mph, and you stick your blade out, there's not enough time on some occasions to properly pull it. Those instances are what I described as part of the game. You should never gack a slow fighter...only fast ones. But, occasionally, you do gack someone who does something you don't expect...and for that, I always apologize.
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 09/08/2006 12:29 PM |
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Nicely put Blayde. I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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frprepairman
Scholar
Posts:23
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| 09/11/2006 9:36 PM |
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Thank you for the clarification, Blayde. I do agree that people should not complain when they get hit hard once or twice by someone, as accidents do happen. I dented a mask at Warren War when a fighter dove on me, despite my trying to pull the shot. It happens.
The original posts sounded like you were saying anyone who took issue with hard shots was being a whiner. I have spent too many years listening to consistent hard hitters calling everybody else whiners to be understanding of it. But the key is "consistent". People who gack others on accident every soo often are different.
Unfortunitely, there are people who will run to a marshall the first time they feel more than a tap. On the other side, there are those who will bruise you several times in 10 minutes of practicing. Both sides need to work on this problem. I will normally only talk to someone if they are consistently hitting too hard, and I will usually try to address why it is happening. I don't tend to run to the marshall...oh wait...I am a Senior Marshall. In the years that I have been a senior marshall, I have never had to pull someones card because of too much hard hitting. Normally, mentioning it and doing some teaching has solved the problem.
I have also found that the problem with hard hitters is self resolving. People will stop fighting with them because they hit too hard, and they eather learn a lighter touch or drop out of the sport. I have seen it happen many times.
Indigo
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 09/20/2006 3:50 PM |
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I would like to add one small thing here jsut for clarities sake.
Blayde it does sound as if you have said many times that "Speed = Hard hits" which is why you occasionally hit hard. Correct me if my reading of this is wrong .
The thing that I wanted to correct is this, UNtill my back surgery earlier this year I was lighting fast ... as fast as any other fighter out there ..... and not one single time have I ever had someone complain that I have hit to hard.
Just a point of clarity that speed does not equal hard
peace
Utgar |
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Blayde
Free Scholar
Posts:56
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| 09/20/2006 5:07 PM |
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Utgar,
Agreed. Speed certainly does not mean hard. I will admit one of the main reasons for my success is speed, and I believe that without speed and tons of fencing knowledge, you make a great historian. Just don't go duel anyone because quotes don't kill!
The only time I hit hard is when my opponent does something that i don't expect at me. Occasionally, I hit firm, but that is merely a very minor judgment error on my part. hey, I'm human.
Where people hit hard are in two circumstances. One, lack of training/practice. Two, excitement. My students often hit me harder than they should because they don't hit me nearly as much as they would like, and when the opportunity comes, they oftimes explode into me. The same thing happens in tournament. Other fast fencers try to play the speed game with me because they know if they don't do something fairly quick, I'm going to end it. Sometimes, two offensive actions happen at the same moment...and a hard hit may occur due to lack of proper wrist breaking in the time needed.
BTW...I live in the West and go by Blayde. The Band of the Black Tigers website is at: blacktigers.us
Feel free to stop by and say hola. |
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