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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/21/2006 12:07 PM |
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Tora raises some interesting questions (chances are this quote won't work properly on this forum):
Take the white scarf, for example: there are always exceptions to every
rule (and I have met them)
but in general it has been my experience
that when a person attains the white scarf they tend to view it
as
tacit approval to stop the learning process altogether and spend the
rest of their days basking. They
no longer try to get better--in fact,
often times they just gradually get worse. And this is not a regional
phenominon. I have lived in a great many locations around the world
and I can tell you that within this
organization it is widespread. I
wish I could just say "unacceptable", snap my fingers, and fix the
problem but alas I am as yet still working out the bugs on that.
In the interim, I do not know if it should come in the way of titles,
awards, ranks, or what have you,
but I do think that something along
these lines would be a good idea to help remind everyone--not
just
those content to hold the current highest rapier award attainable--that
there really is a lot more
out there yet to be learned and that they
have not yet reached the ceiling of all they can do. And if
each
subsequent--until we have a name, let's call it a level--level were
significantly more difficult to
attain than the last so much the
better. After all, if it were easy what would be the point?
The usefulness of a group like the OWS in terms of a bar or an
example to all decreases over time; it's true. Every order does. But
what, exactly, are you trying to get discussed? Admission criteria
isn't negotiable - it's the whim of the Crown, with some input from the
order's existing members. Abolition isn't feasible in an SCA context,
either. What do you mean by "take a harder look at the white scarf"?
I personally feel that orders like the OWS are useless. Oh, the
concept sounds really good on paper, initially. Reward the best
examples of rapier combatant with membership in this elite order and
give them a little flag to tie to their arms so everyone knows who they
are. But how do you determine who gets in? In the SCA, entrance is
granted by the Crown (who may or may not know or care much about
rapier). And there's a pressure on each Crown to leave a mark, to
admit people to various orders. There's a finite number of "top notch"
rapier fighters around; during some reigns, there may be no truly
standout fighters who haven't been recognized. It's not like the
rapier population is booming. But perhaps no one has been recognized
in almost a year... or perhaps there's an intense lobbying campaign by
a current scarf on behalf of his/her cadet. In any case, the admission
bar gets lowered a little (or a lot) in order to let someone in. Or
they let someone in who sees the scarf as a goal - as an end-point
rather than as a beginning. Do that enough times, and the community
starts to treat the scarf as meaningless. It's not a badge of an elite
order if half the kingdom can beat some of the members, or if the
members prefer to preen at the side of the eric rather than kick ass
inside it. There's no way to remove someone from the order for sucking.
Sadly, this decline is inevitable. If we create another order above the WS, the WS immediately becomes valueless to the community (oh, it keeps its grant level - the heralds and the awards collectors will still care but the actual fighters won't), and the new rank becomes the one that people want. For a while, only the best get in. And then we run out of "best" and start adding the "pretty goods" and the "nice guys" and people start to bitch that it doesn't mean anything any more, and you're back where we started.
I would personally like to see everyone treat each individual as that individual's skill merits. I don't need a scarf on someone's arm to tell me how much respect I should give them. The better opponents, the ones who really care about the art - I know who they are, and new ones are easy to recognize. Treat people as they deserve, not as their rank would dictate.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:105
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| 08/21/2006 1:34 PM |
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I actually wasn't trying to get anything discussed when I mentioned taking a harder look at the white scarf. That was strictly for those period police who tend to object to changes on the grounds that said change is not period. Back in the day the white scarf did not signify skill with a rapier, so I meant it as an example of other awards/titles/ranks, etc, that exist outside the confines of what is entirely period.
Like you, I agree that the white scarf no longer means what it once did--a large part of which stemming from the fact that it is given by royals who, more often than not, have little to no knowledge whatsoever of rapier, but also because, as you said, half the kingdom is capable of defeating them regularly in tournament. I disagree, however, in that any award's declination is inevitable, not if you have a specific criteria for making it to said rank/award/title, etc, that is not subject to whim. For example--and no one should take this literally, as this really is only an example off the top of my head--let's say the awarding of the white scarf was only the first of three levels. Sure, getting the white scarf is a matter of the royals deciding you are worthy, but that is where outside influence ends. Let's say the second level requires you to become champion of three major tournaments in a single year, with the third level requiring you to go undefeated in the Queen's Rapier Championship once/twice/however many times. You could denote these different levels with a certain color of border on the white scarf, or whatever the community desired. The point is to make it difficult so you can be sure only the best of the very best ever achieved it.
Having something beyond just the white scarf would be impetus enough, I think, to shake the cage of many of these dust-covered dons and keep them moving forward from the WS rather than sitting back once received.
Tora |
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/21/2006 2:56 PM |
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Back in the day the white scarf did not signify skill with a rapier,
so I meant it as an example of other
awards/titles/ranks, etc, that
exist outside the confines of what is entirely period.
Back in what day? In the early days of An Tir rapier? Or in period? Because I can assure you it most certainly did mean skill with a rapier when An Tir signed the WS treaty. In period, of course it didn't mean skill with a rapier. Back in period, titles weren't awarded for arbitrary things like skill with needle or in the kitchen, either. The white scarf is entirely an affectation of an award-happy society.
As to a WS with embellishment - it's an interesting idea, but I think you'd have a hell of a time getting people to agree on concrete criteria.
Let's say the second level requires you to become champion of three
major tournaments in a single year, with the third level requiring you
to go undefeated in the Queen's Rapier Championship once/twice/however
many times.
Leaving aside the fact that many groups don't like someone holding more than one championship at a time, there's a problem with requiring championships. I don't know about the other white scarves who stopped entering, but I stopped entering championship tournaments a few years before I actually quit the SCA. I was still willing to fight, and to kick ass, but I wouldn't enter a championship tournament, because every time I won one, they punished me by making me a champion. That, in itself, doesn't sound like a bad thing, but it is. To be a champion in the SCA is to be an ornament.
I see a rapier champion's duty as kicking ass on the eric to represent the group you champion, and not embarrassing them with your conduct off the field. That's it. The SCA seems to think that a champion's job is to stand behind the thrones and get in the way of the retinue. You're an ornament - you serve no purpose, and you take up space. It's even worse when you're in an early period court. The thrones are surrounded by 8th century vikings, and there you are, sticking out like a sore thumb in cavalier garb. Why on earth would I want to stand behind the thrones, where it's too crowded to move and I'm in the way, when I could be sitting with the populace, where my wife and friends are?
Having something beyond just the white scarf would be impetus enough, I
think, to shake the cage of many of these dust-covered dons and
keep them moving forward from the WS rather than sitting back once
received.
To be honest, I don't think that'd motivate the ones who get their scarves and stop fighting. The ones who keep striving to improve don't need the awards as motivation, and the ones that stop - well, the base WS would be the pinnacle of their achievement anyway, because they're likely to be the ones that had the bar lowered for them. The additional ranks would probably serve to separate the really good WS's from the chaff, but everyone knows who the best are anyway. But they'd fail to motivate continued improvement from the ones who aren't self-motivated.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:105
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| 08/21/2006 3:33 PM |
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No, when I say back in the day I mean WAY back in the day. Back when people used to wear the funny clothes on more than just weekends and swordsmen weren't afraid to back up their words with deed (long stories, don't ask).
As far as champion equating to ornament, yep, wholeheartedly agree; but I'm working on that.
People frowning on you holding multiple championships? Yep, working on that one too.
In regard to motivating rapier to raise the bar community-wide, I do not think that to be a lost cause just yet. I've seen enough to believe it can be done. We may have to shatter a few preconceived notions along the way, but that's all right with me. Sometimes you need a little upheaval to bring about some positive change.
By the way, TdB, we seem to share a few viewpoints. Unless you've quit fencing entirely, we should talk. Drop me a line at mrprez2012@comcast.net if you ever feel like it. I'm sure the conversation will prove interesting.
Tora |
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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Kieran Gunn
Free Scholar
Posts:48
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| 08/21/2006 5:44 PM |
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Why does the opinon exist that the crown appears to "lower the bar" with every White Scarf it makes. Every individual White Scarf is there for a various degrees of fighting skill, knowledge of period rapier techniques, service to the rapier community, leadership ability, and chivalric quality. But even though each rapier fighter is watched, for a long time, by the OWS before the scarf is granted there are always people that believe that the OWS and the Crown have "lowered the bar".
What reasons are there that should hold people back?
Are they just not good enough? (A vague and a real cowardly answer)
Should we tell the people that have been on the cusp for years that they will never be good enough? That they should just stop. Should we tell the ones that have had multiple injuries, too bad ya got hurt, you were gonna be great.
If we treat the WS as an olympic gold medal, then it will loose all meaning, ya won a tournament one day. If we use it as the mark of a role model then it will be a symbol for everyone to try and live up to.
For the members of the OWS who cannot do as much as they used to, because of age / injury / lack of money, the symbol will still exist that they were once a role model and can teach just as much off the field as they can on it.
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Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 08/21/2006 8:04 PM |
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personally, I've seen the WS as a goal to attain, not for the actual WS, but an indication that my fighting, dress, efforts and participation exceed the majority of the populace of the rapier community.. and that I have the OWS respect as a good and honourable combatant (have a ways to go there...but in time, ya never know...have to find a don willing to take me on as a cadet first...*snork*). Personally, I'd rather have the OWS award the WS, but we are at the whim of the crown.
The WS retirement syndrome is what I believe, a result of burnout. One can only be at the top of their game for so long before they need a break, and the effort to attain the WS can sometimes be a relatively easy road (not enough WS in that region), or an arduous road of competition (matching up with the likes of Prospere, Pierce and Guido...oh, and you Thore when you're around... been in that "oh Shit" spot before).
as to making a higher award...isn't that a Laurel?
Gwydion
loose cannon and mercenary,
rogue and rabblerouser
and occasionally impertinent
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/22/2006 7:42 AM |
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Kieran writes:
Why does the opinon exist that the crown appears to "lower the bar"
with every White Scarf it makes.
Every individual White Scarf is there
for a various degrees of fighting skill, knowledge of period rapier
techniques,
service to the rapier community, leadership ability, and
chivalric quality. But even though each rapier fighter is
watched, for
a long time, by the OWS before the scarf is granted there are always
people that believe that the
OWS and the Crown have "lowered the bar".
Because from a strict "ability to kick ass" standpoint, it's pretty damned obvious when a candidate raises the average quality of the order, and when they lower it. Back in the day, we used to try to use the 50% rule to determine whether someone had reached the skill bar. If they could consistently beat half the order, they were good enough to meet the skill requirement. That rule got broken so often it was eventually dropped, and if it were reinstated now, it'd be a low bar because there are so many WS who're considered easy meat.
And it's not every candidate about whom people murmur about the bar being low. There are candidates who are outstanding, and whom everyone acknowledges are deserving of the award. Which is what makes it obvious when the bar *is* being lowered for other candidates.
This happens in every order, polling order or not. There is an inclination to grow the order at a faster rate than standout candidates appear.
What reasons are there that should hold people back?
Are they just not good enough? (A vague and a real cowardly answer)
A perfectly valid answer. If your skill level isn't outstanding, no cookie.
Should
we tell the people that have been on the cusp for years that they will
never be good enough?
That they should just stop.
No, we should tell them that their fighting skill isn't quite up to snuff.
Should we tell the
ones that have had multiple injuries, too bad ya got hurt, you were
gonna be great.
Yup.
You treat the scarf as though people have a right to it. I treat it as a recognition of a standard achieved. You don't achieve the standard, you don't get recognized as having achieved the standard.
If we use it as the mark of a role model then it will be a symbol for everyone to try and live up to.
You yourself listed criteria needed to designate someone as that role model. One of those criteria was fighting skill. Of all the criteria listed, it's the most readily measurable. It's also the most critical - we are a fighting order. Let's assume that we rate the 5 virtues of a rapier combatant on a scale of 1-10. Let's assume that we need an average of 8 to be recognized as a WS. If a given fighter has a fighting skill of 4, and 9's and 10's for everything else, he should fail, despite having an average of over 8. If you can't walk the walk, you don't get to be a WS.
For the members of the OWS who cannot do as much as they used to,
because of age / injury / lack of money,
the symbol will still exist
that they were once a role model and can teach just as much off the
field as they can on it.
Now you're switching the focus from what it takes to become a WS to what happens afterwards. That has nothing to do with the view that the bar gets lowered from time to time. If a WS stops fighting and just preens at the side of the eric, they're going to lose the respect of the fighting community, no matter the reason. We may respect their past accomplishments, but they're not the big dogs the scarf suggests they are. In that respect, the scarf is meaningless. The fighting community knows who the top dogs are, no matter what danglies they have. Giving someone a scarf doesn't guarantee them respect in the fighting community (except perhaps from people who've never fought them or seen them fight, and even then, only until they do so).
I walked away from the SCA 2 years ago (and was mostly inactive the 3 years prior to that). Now that I'm back (curse the lack of WMA in Calgary), I don't expect the scarf to earn me any respect on the field. I'm broken, I'm out of practice, and there's a whole generation of fighters who've never seen me fight. And the scarf no longer signifies that the bearer is someone to be feared.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/22/2006 10:37 AM |
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My money will still be on the old, slow, broken version of Thoré.
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 08/22/2006 11:29 AM |
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| I totally agree that the virtues of rapier need to be met across the board before anyone gets in to the order of the WS. If they have an 11 out of 10 in fighting but a 3 in most other things then they should be told that they may need to focus some of their efforts in other rapier related endeavors. |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 08/22/2006 4:54 PM |
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Its a problem common to all polling orders I'd wager. Besides the OWS, I have heard similar things said about each of the peerage orders as well.
The problem is perception. What is the bar? Does it change over time? Should it change over time? How do you really know if it has changed? Since I was added to the order in 1999 I've heard the complaint that the bar is set too high and the complaint that the bar is set too low. Sometimes both complaints at the same time. So which is it?
Members of the rapier community see people developing their skills and filling leadership roles. If its not a WS filling that role, people will begin to ask why that person is not a WS. They seem to be doing the job, shouldn't they be recognized for it? The bar must be too high.
The Crown admits a new member to the order and some people don't agree with the elevation. Maybe they know someone they think is more deserving. Maybe the new WS just doesn't meet their personal standard. The bar must be too low.
You all might be surprised by this but we in the OWS discuss this all too often. Firstly, we don't all agree on what the criteria should be, let alone what standard to apply to that criteria. Our own personal standards change over time and often we don't even recognize it when it happens. And of course each time a new member is added a new opinion is added in to the confusion. When we can finally reach some sort of agreement on a candidate it translates into a recommendation to the Crown, for it is They who actually decide who will be admitted.
And the rapier community shouldn't feel special about this. Its how the peerages work as well. While kings will most likely know something about the way the Chivalry do things, I'd wager that not many of them know the intracacies of needlepoint before they make a laurel. The Crown has access to the opinion of those in the order to help make decisions on elevations. Remember that They are not bound by that opinion and may have Their own concept of where the bar should be and that's ok.
When we talk about where the bar is set quite often a gauge that is discussed is that the candidates skill level should be at the midpoint of the order. Essentially they should be able to beat half of us consistently and will lose to the other half of us consistently. The problem is that this is a variable gauge that changes over time.
Lets assume that most of the WSs continue to refine their skills and get better over time. The bar raises as the skill level of the WSs increases. It becomes increasingly difficult to gain entrance to the order. Now assume that most of the WSs let themselves stagnate. The bar lowers as their skills atrophy.
But is this really what happens? Lets just assume for a minute that the bar never moves. In the first scenario above people see recognition being given to people who aren't anywhere near as good as the current members of the order. The bar is too low. In the second scenario people are frustrated because it seems the amount of effort to be recognized as a WS is too high, higher than most of the present members are currently capable of. The bar is too high. The bar never moved but people's perception is that it has (or that it should). Now consider that both scenarios are happening at the same time. Depending on where you stand your perception will reflect what you see.
I don't subscribe to Thore and Tora's pessimistic view of the OWS. Are there those among us who "spend the rest of their days basking"? Sure. However, I think it is wrong to generalize too much.
I do agree with Thore that everyone should be treated according to their own merits. Membership in any order does not confer status as much as it is recognition of status achieved. You can either work to maintain or enhance that status or you can let it slip away.
I personally have struggled with this and continue to struggle with it. When I was made a WS I drilled pretty much every day. I don't do near as much work on my game anymore. Has it suffered? I think it has. My point control is not what it used to be and neither is my judgement of distance. I'm 7 years older so I'm 7 years slower as well.
Does that mean that the OWS is devalued by my membership in it?
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Kieran Gunn
Free Scholar
Posts:48
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| 08/22/2006 10:12 PM |
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Let me clarify something.
Why I said that "they are just not good enough" to be a vague answer. If that is the only answer to hold someone back without any explanation to back it up, it becomes a cowardly statement. If I hear the arguement "they are just not good enough because ........" they dont win ANY tournaments, cannot beat a WS to save their life, they dont lift a finger for the rapier community, aren't courtious, or because they cannot respect the system that they choose to play in, I will give the arguement more merrit.
I agree that the WS should be given for excellence in fighting ability first and foremost, and I do not believe that it should be given for time served.
As for switching my arguement to what happens after a WS is granted, I think it completely has everything to do with the fighting skill bar being lowered. If the top 50% WS fighters stop fighting for whatever reason, then all we have left to measure with is the bottom 50% that do fight. Take 12th night for instance. I noticed that the only ones fighting in that tournament that had been a WS for longer than I have been were Prospere, who was not competing only fighting the bye fights, and Ian Archibald Guthrie. Most of the scarves who were fighting had only been one for less than 6 months as they were made by Uther and Angharad. Would you lesson Tora's achievement because scarves like Prospere, Guido, Pierce, Simone and Thore were not there in their prime to stop him? Should others have been made a WS because they have defeated the aforementioned scarves to win Queens Rapier? I can think of many crown events lately where the WS tournout has been low, and I believe that the smaller tournament turnouts have been even smaller. Are the winners of these tournaments not excelling in the lists that they are presented with? If "the best" fighters in the kingdom do not fight then they can hardly call themselves "the best". The problem will really raise its head when the uninformed inactive WS is trying to recommend or deny fighters for recognition from the crown, the same as with any polling order or peerage in the Kingdom.
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/23/2006 9:05 AM |
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The bar *does* get lowered. It may bounce back, it may not. Here's an example: Someone gets added to the watch list. In discussion, it's decided that his fighting skill isn't good enough to justify recommending him to the crown. But he's got the rest of the attributes we look for. A year goes by. The fighter is still on the watch list. He's cadet to one of those scarves who think it's their job to advocate for their cadets instead of teach them to, you know, fight well. He keeps getting brought up, even though his skill hasn't improved. One of his friends writes a letter to the crown recommending him. The crown asks the order about him. "See" we're told "Even the crown is asking about him now. We need to recommend him." That sort of thing shouldn't happen, but it does. In every polling order, as I said earlier in this thread.
If the top 50% WS fighters stop fighting for whatever reason, then all
we have left to measure with is the
bottom 50% that do fight.
That's a straw man - it assumes that we actually use the "can the candidate beat 50% of the order" as the skill criteria, and we don't. Each of us has our own idea of what is "good enough." Mine is "would I be nervous about the outcome if a fight vs this person really mattered to me?"
Take 12th
night for instance. I noticed that the only ones fighting in that
tournament
that had been a WS for longer than I have been were
Prospere, who was not competing only fighting the bye
fights, and Ian
Archibald Guthrie. Most of the scarves who were fighting had only been
one for less than 6 months
as they were made by Uther and Angharad.
I've replied to this in a new thread, because it would completely derail this one if I replied here.
The problem will really raise its head when the uninformed inactive WS
is trying to recommend or deny fighters for recognition from the crown,
the same as with any polling order or peerage in the Kingdom.
You can drop "inactive" from that sentence, to be more complete. Many of the scarves don't travel enough to see all the candidates being discussed. Many of the candidates don't travel enough to be seen by a lot of the scarves. And people will still vote, based on the opinions of the scarves they do trust. Simone and I have very similar criteria. If I don't know a candidate, but Simone is very familiar with him, I will go with Simone's opinion. There are other people whose recommendation means nothing to me, because the criteria they use are so different from mine.
For me, the problem is that the society and the community places too much value upon the rank. If everyone treated the scarf as an "attaboy" from the community, then it wouldn't matter if some lesser skilled fighters received the pat on the head. We'd go on using our own judgement to determine who we trusted to teach, who we should be worried about losing to, and so on. But as it is, the community places a huge value on the scarf. It tells too many people that "this person is to be feared in the eric. This person is a good teacher." So there's an obligation to try to make the order conform to the expectations of it. Which means being selective and agonizing about how the recognition of Joe Blow is going to affect the perceived ability of the order to live up to the expectations of the community.
So, everyone: Stop treating the WS's like they're special. Make your own judgements about individual fighters, and give each their due as individuals. Treat the scarf like it's a pat on the head. Once everyone is doing that, we can stop agonizing over who gets into the club and go back to trying to make ourselves and those around us better fighters.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:105
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| 08/23/2006 9:37 AM |
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On a side note, I actually would lessen the significance of Queen's Rapier if there were no best and brightest in attendance. But the fact that I had fencers like Prospere fighting destructive byes--and a host of other folks there who were great fun to fight--makes that tournament not only more worthwhile to me personally, but also raises the stature of that tournament as a whole.
In reference to what Raoul said, rest assured that my statement is not overgeneralized at all. Most white scarves are indeed content to bask in former glories. I do not exaggerate when I say that I am extensively traveled and I can promise you the problem is truly widespread. Make no mistake that there are exceptions to every rule--here as in everywhere else--but the overwhelming majority, however, begin their steady decline less than a year of receiving their award. And I for one do not think it is a coincidence that this occurs upon obtaining the highest award they can aspire to in the rapier community. I think most of these folks feel they have nothing left to shoot for so they don't bother pushing themselves anymore. This is part of the reason why I think there should be some kind of augmentation to the white scarf--and a difficult one, something to truly push their skill level to reach it in the first place. Otherwise I fear we will see this same scenario play out again and again: fencer begins training, fencer gets better, fencer achieves white scarf, fencer gets worse, fencer is occasionally seen at an event every few years.
Tora |
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 08/23/2006 11:35 AM |
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Tora, my first reaction to what you just said was, "Come here and say that."
Now for a more constructive response 
So the problem as you state it is that people become WSs then feel that since they've met the "ultimate" goal they have no further challenges so don't bother to try anymore, correct? So you propose adding more 'levels' to the WS. Are you proposing that these levels somehow progress infinitely? Otherwise you will just be delaying the effect that you are trying to address.
Some do treat it as a destination. Some recognize that there is more to the SCA than just rapier and do other things for awhile. Using myself as an example, since becoming a WS I served a four year term as baron, been a web minister for a barony and a principality, been squired, served as armoured champion for my barony and when I fight at events I usually fight heavy. Am I burned out? Am I retired from rapier? Admittedly, I haven't put as much time into my own rapier game since, but during the same time I've also served as Principality Rapier Marshal, Baronial Rapier Champion, I've had 6 cadets, 2 of which are now WSs, attended symposiums, taught classes, sponsored tournaments and generally been a resource to anyone who asks. Still say I've retired? Come here and say that. 
Raoul
PS And jsut so everyone is clear on this, I'm not taking any of this personally. I'm just the example I'm most familiar with, good or bad. |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 08/23/2006 11:59 AM |
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Hey folks... Needing a break from something difficult today, so I'm on this forum for another...20 minutes or so. And Lo! A fun discussion.
No award should automatically confer total respect for a person or their skills, no matter how they act.
When I see a White Scarf, I *am* confident that I am seeing a person who had put a *lot* of effort into becoming good with a rapier. And that, is all. And it's not much, really. Anything beyond that I will have to find out from watching how the person fights and behaves...it's not implicit in the scarf. Or belt, or crown, for that matter.
For myself, I was clear from the beginning that I wanted a WS. Not the scarf so much, but I wanted to know I had walked the path to getting one. Walking the path to the conclusion was the important part for me. It was, frankly, a pain in the butt. I am not mentally geared for rapier tournaments...I run hot, not cool. But the path WAS good, and it did change me, and I think I got out of my WS what I wanted.
My first real martial arts teacher described the process of learning a martial art using a diagram shaped like an hourglass. You start at the bottom with a lot to learn, and then there is less and less to learn, and eventually you get a black belt. Once you've got that, you start to learn a few new little things, and then some more, and then more, and then you really find a *lot* of new things to learn...
This isn't anything really philosophical or mystical though. It's plain ole sports science. The only way to get better is to continuously try to perform above your level. *Most* people settle out at a level that equates to the social norm for the activity. Some people push a little harder so they can be better, but they only push as far as they have the energy for, and eventually settle. A few people continue to push constantly, and they become the truly outstanding ones. The better you get, the more effort it takes to get to the next level. It takes a truly broken person to try to become the best.
The WS sits at the beginning of the steep cut-off curve. It's the people that have pushed hard, and then just a little harder. That's as far as some of them go, and that's not a bad thing. It's still far past the point that most people will push. But it's not up into the far end of the curve, either. 98% of people will fit into the median. 2% will make that push beyond, and those are the WS's...and that's a pretty accurate assessment. Say what you want about the skills of anyone in the order, but I don't know of any who are in that haven't put in a truly serious effort. For some of them, that effort is a real breaker. They can't maintain a normal life while putting in the next step, but they will make the usual gradual improvement that time and "regular" practice grant. About half that 2%, or 1% of overall fighters, will be the type that just continue to push themselves.
I think that's a pretty fair dividing line. Keeping the line at 2% makes it within reach of those who make more effort than others are willing. Moving it to the 1% would certainly raise the bar...but also effectively make it effectively unattainable and eventually make it an irrelevant award. It would like saying that only QRC's could be members of the order. The order would certainly gain more respect that way, but it would lose a lot of it's ability to motivate those fighters who are wondering how far they can go with a little more effort... Taking up heavy to become a knight is a worthy goal, aiming to become king is...lofty, and taking up heavy to become a duke is...unrealistic.
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/23/2006 12:09 PM |
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Posted By Tora on 08-23-2006 9:37 AM
On a side note, I actually would lessen the significance of Queen's Rapier
Yes, yes you do.
....if there were no best and brightest in attendance. But the fact that I had fencers like Prospere fighting destructive byes--and a host of other folks there who were great fun to fight--makes that tournament not only more worthwhile to me personally, but also raises the stature of that tournament as a whole.
In reference to what Raoul said, rest assured that my statement is not overgeneralized at all. Most white scarves are indeed content to bask in former glories. I do not exaggerate when I say that I am extensively traveled and I can promise you the problem is truly widespread. Make no mistake that there are exceptions to every rule--here as in everywhere else--but the overwhelming majority, however, begin their steady decline less than a year of receiving their award. And I for one do not think it is a coincidence that this occurs upon obtaining the highest award they can aspire to in the rapier community. I think most of these folks feel they have nothing left to shoot for so they don't bother pushing themselves anymore. This is part of the reason why I think there should be some kind of augmentation to the white scarf--and a difficult one, something to truly push their skill level to reach it in the first place. Otherwise I fear we will see this same scenario play out again and again: fencer begins training, fencer gets better, fencer achieves white scarf, fencer gets worse, fencer is occasionally seen at an event every few years.
Tora
Oh. Um. Never mind my previous comment then. I thought you were saying something else... er... Nobody saw anything, this never happened...
(JK)!!
Make no mistake that there are exceptions to every rule--here as in everywhere else--but the overwhelming majority, however, begin their steady decline less than a year of receiving their award. And I for one do not think it is a coincidence that this occurs upon obtaining the highest award they can aspire to in the rapier community. I think most of these folks feel they have nothing left to shoot for so they don't bother pushing themselves anymore.
I agree - and then again, I do not agree.
Have you ever consdiered any other causes that could lead to this scenario? I can. Whether Chivalry, Pelican, Laurel, OGGS or OWS. Perhaps they were never that good to begin with - a string of luck that made them look good for a bit. Perhaps they were recognized by the Crown, even though or most, if not all, of the Order disagreed. Perhaps they knew they would never get any better, so stopped trying (slightly distinct from what you mention). Perhaps people chose to trust the opinions of those that could actually speak about the candidate, due to geographical limitations, etc - and then later the new member of whatever order turns out to not meet the personal requirements of those that chose to accept others words...
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:105
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| 08/23/2006 12:55 PM |
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Am I retired from rapier? Admittedly, I haven't put as much time into my own rapier game since, but during the same time I've also served as Principality Rapier Marshal, Baronial Rapier Champion, I've had 6 cadets, 2 of which are now WSs, attended symposiums, taught classes, sponsored tournaments and generally been a resource to anyone who asks.
It's my own fault for not being clear. Though I do agree with TdB that the bar for even becoming a white scarf is much less than it should be, the problem that concerns me in particular is the steady decline in skill by so many white scarves after receiving their award. Even you admit as much in your quote above. You haven't put as much time into your rapier game since. I think it's great that you teach and assist as much as you do. I do not doubt at all that you are an asset to the rapier community, but notice when you said you stopped putting as much time into your rapier: since receiving your scarf. This is not a criticism of you--perhaps you just discovered that heavy fighting was more your thing and rapier was no longer as important to you. That's fine. But it happens overwhelmingly across the board for one reason or another: achieve white scarf, begin skill declination. I personally think it is because most people need a goal they can shoot for, some measure of progress that they can hold themselves up to and see they are making strides.
Adding levels to the white scarf is just an idea off the top of my head, and, no, I do not propose adding levels to infinitum. What I propose are levels set such that only the very best could ever achieve them. For example, within my own school I have students in four different countries and in a handful of states here in the US. In each location the rank structure is exactly the same, numbered 1-5, and is completely merit-based; there is not a thing I can do even as one of the founders to raise their rank.
1st rank: win a tournament with at least 10 fighters participating.
2nd rank: win a tournament with at least 20 fighters participating.
3rd rank: win a tournament with at least 30 fighters participating.
4th rank: win a 40 fighter tournament; then at some later date win a best two of three against three simultaneous opponents chosen randomly by the cadre.
5th rank: win a 50 fighter tournament; then at some later date win a best two of three against five simultaneous opponents chosen randomly by the cadre.
Obviously every student in training, just over fifty of them, imagine themselves one day wearing the fifth rank but, realistically, most of them will never see it. Only the most dedicated to the art and skillful with the sword have a hope of seeing that final goal realized. And so should it be with the highest rank achievable in the rapier community.
Just my opinion based on my experience anyway.
Tora
BTW Rest assured, Raoul, I am never one to refuse a challenge. Even if it's just for fun.  |
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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Eira
Provost
Posts:79
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| 08/23/2006 1:26 PM |
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As far as the idea that a large number of WS quit fighting as much or let their skills decline, has anyone ever considered the possibility of burnout?
I personally wouldn't know because if I want to be a WS I have a very long road ahead of me, but it would seem to me that burnout would be a logical reason for some.
If you are putting as much effort and energy into rapier when ever you can. If you're travelling to any event you can get to, fighting whenever the opportunity presents itsself. If you're seeking out those who are better than you all the time so that you may learn from them, seems to me that eventually you'll get tired.
I'd suspect that by the time you got that WS although you'd feel a sense of accomplishment because you worked your ass of to get that far, you might also want a break. I mean some people might by that time realize it isn't as fun as it used to be. Maybe stepping back for a bit would help them get back to the reason why they did it in the first place.
I know everyone has a different reason for fighting, some just for fun, some because they love the rush of a duel, some because the see it as a cool sport, but bottom line everyone does it because they enjoy it some way for one reason or another.
I could see that on the path to becoming a WS that reason could get pushed aside and when it's all said and done and you've achieved your goal I would understand wanting to get back to that original reason, which may mean a break is required.
Now I'm not saying this would account for every one. For those who take a break and never really resume, that I don't understand at all. |
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Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
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Gemma~
Provost
Posts:97
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| 08/23/2006 2:08 PM |
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(generic comment below, specific to no previous poster)
I would suggest walking a mile in the shoes of most OWS members before deciding if we have been judged and found wanting.
All of us have had our own journies to where we are now, and have our own reasons for the decisions that we've made. We're all *real* humans too, and find the pedestal uncomfortable. God knows, I had Guido on a really high one for a long time.
I'd add more, but it'll get rantilicious. :o) |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/23/2006 2:56 PM |
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As far as the idea that a large number of WS quit fighting as much or
let their skills decline, has anyone ever
considered the possibility of
burnout?
People burn out all the time. Not on the actual fighting, usually, but on the politicking and BS that accompanies it. That's not really what we're talking about here though - there are a surprising number of fighters who end up with the WS as the peak of their fighting career. Everything before is buildup to that; everything after is denouement. That's not the way it should be.
If you are putting as much effort and energy into rapier when ever
you can. If you're travelling to any event you can
get to, fighting
whenever the opportunity presents itsself. If you're seeking out those
who are better than you all the
time so that you may learn from them,
seems to me that eventually you'll get tired.
Maybe, but that has nothing to do with the awarding of the scarf. That it would coincide with receiving a WS could be a coincidence once. After about 200 times, society wide, and across multiple polling orders, you throw the coincidence label away.
I'd suspect that by the time you got that WS although you'd feel a
sense of accomplishment because you
worked your ass of to get that far,
you might also want a break. I mean some people might by that time
realize it
isn't as fun as it used to be. Maybe stepping back for a bit
would help them get back to the reason why they did
it in the first
place.
The WS isn't supposed to be an end-point, though. It shouldn't even be a goal. It's a pat on the back for having taken some steps along the right path, and encouragement to continue.
Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time there was a young swordsman named Thoré. He loved the concept of rapier combat. He practiced hard, using the fibreglass crap that passed for a rapier simulator at the time. He attended lots of events throughout his Crown Principality, winning a tournament here and there. When schlagers became legal in An Tir, he bought one immediately, and became even more enamoured with the sword. He met the kingdom rapier champion, a chap called Artimis, when the champ was called in to settle a rambunctious young swordsman down. At their first encounter, he one-shot Artimis (face shot), and then promptly got his ass kicked for five consecutive passes before landing again. Eyes opened to the possibility of facing better fighters, he began travelling further, to rapier events all over the kingdom. Drive 18 hours to an event in the Summits, fight for an afternoon, and drive 18 hours home? No problem! He attended 30th Year celebration near Portland, and found all these hot shot rapier fighters from all over the SCA called White Scarves. How kind of them to mark themselves like that! Our intrepid hero hunted white scarves the whole week. Less than a year after 3YC, Artimis took him as a cadet. And a few months later, Darius and Morgaine offered him a white scarf. The peak of his career, you ask? Not at all. Barely the beginning. So much to learn, so little time. He was a single sword specialist at the time - he didn't like off-hand weapons, and didn't need them. But a WS is an expert with every weapons combination! So he learned, first a dagger, then a buckler, then a cloak, until he was proficient with them all. He came to love rapier and dagger as the be all and end all of combinations. He made the finals of QRC twice. He became principality champion again. And he travelled more and more. The last year he lived in Calgary, he practiced 4-5 times a week, and travelled to 45 events a year. Eventually, he burned out due to injury and politics, and his fighting in the SCA petered out. He took up WMA instead of SCA rapier, until injury ruled that out too. He sat around for two years, getting slow and fat, waiting for his arm to heal enough that he could fight again. And now he's back. If he had any sense, he'd not be posting on message forums, but he gets bored at work, and starting debates to practice his rhetoric is fun.
The WS was barely a blip on the radar for me. It was a nice recognition that I was on the right path, and it was encouragement to get better to live up to the high standards of the order. But it's not in the top 10 high points of my rapier career. I have a hard time understanding the concept of "strive hard for the recognition, receive it, then do nothing more." The WS is not a permanent reputation enhancer. It's a recognition that at one point in time, you were good enough for the Crown to say "attaboy, keep it up."
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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