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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 08/18/2006 8:11 PM |
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Posted By Samauel on 08-17-2006 11:45 PM
I didn't see a page two Ramone....
I had another idea on titles too. What about something like service stripes? Or maybe hash marks like what we have on dress military uniforms? The idea of service stripes would be like how you can get the same award a few times, earning an oakleaf cluster, or the hash marks to note years of service?
I'm amazed... I'm almost speechless... Actually my first impressions of this are not printable in polite society. So I'll have to make do with the following.
Personally, I don't want hashmarks down to mah butt, ruinin' the look of my garb.
And follow that up with, show me documentation of the practice in pre-17th century Europe.
This is not the military, or the Boy Scouts for that matter. I wasn't all that big on merit badges when I was in Scouts, I certainly don't think it has a place in the SCA.
If someone is doin' this for the cookies, they're doin' it for the wrong reasons. And all this will do is propogate that doin' "X" to get a sparkly sort of mentality.
We have plenty of awards, titles, danglies, sparklies, and alaphabet soup.
Dormouse |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/19/2006 8:19 AM |
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Pretty much every award available in An Tir, with the obvious non-rapier combat forms excluded, can be awarded for an individual's involvedment with rapier. And it is not like the rapier community doesn't already have it's own award already for those of you not paying attention.
From the way things seem to be shaping up, I can't see any point in wasting time at this meeting.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/20/2006 12:24 AM |
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Ramon
Those are good points on the guild system. The gist of rapier awards was intended more for people that may think there should be something "More" that describes rapier rank, as it were. Another spin on it may be like in Eastern Martial arts, there is more than one level of black belt that can be reached. Would rapier benift from something similar?
As for a dismissive tone to your question, maybe I was a little, but only in the sense that I don't want a sacred cow concept on any discussion. There is no means intended to make any changes in anything. An individual can champion that on their own. If the rapier people as a whole feel that things are fine as they are (and maybe explain to those that don't know that), then spreding the word for what they can achive may help them in this. I agree that there are a tone of enough awards. Probably so many that we don't even know what is for what.
I know that the military concept might be a bit overboard. However, once a level is achived, what else is there to achive? Some people are motivated by achievement. I don't know if that should be viewed as a bad thing, as it has been in SCA life, but people still do. Why do they then turn out for champoinships?
As for what Doormouse has stated about periodness of titles, do we have that now? Should that be a focus over "Oooh look, another award!" Certianly attaining the title of "Master" was something that was persued in period. But, again. If what we have does fulfill our needs nicely, giving weight to that concept is also a desireable outcome as far as I am concerned. I'm not advocating for this, mearly seeing if there is any need to have it chewed upon. If not, then move to another topic. I'm not partial. That isn't my intent. |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 08/20/2006 7:22 PM |
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Samauel:
(snip)
'As for what Doormouse has stated about periodness of titles, do we have that now? Should that be a focus over "Oooh look, another award!" Certianly attaining the title of "Master" was something that was persued in period. But, again. If what we have does fulfill our needs nicely, giving weight to that concept is also a desireable outcome as far as I am concerned. I'm not advocating for this, mearly seeing if there is any need to have it chewed upon. If not, then move to another topic. I'm not partial. That isn't my intent.'
Granted they're not, but then is continuous improvement and striving to perfect the way things are done foreign in your world?
We can't change the past, but the future can be better. Addin' crap just to stroke egos is bad any way you look at it.
Dormouse |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:105
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| 08/21/2006 10:55 AM |
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Granted they're not, but then is continuous improvement and striving to perfect the way things are done foreign in your world?
If you are talking about the SCA world then, as a matter of fact, they are. Take the white scarf, for example: there are always exceptions to every rule (and I have met them) but in general it has been my experience that when a person attains the white scarf they tend to view it as tacit approval to stop the learning process altogether and spend the rest of their days basking. They no longer try to get better--in fact, often times they just gradually get worse. And this is not a regional phenominon. I have lived in a great many locations around the world and I can tell you that within this organization it is widespread. I wish I could just say "unacceptable", snap my fingers, and fix the problem but alas I am as yet still working out the bugs on that.
In the interim, I do not know if it should come in the way of titles, awards, ranks, or what have you, but I do think that something along these lines would be a good idea to help remind everyone--not just those content to hold the current highest rapier award attainable--that there really is a lot more out there yet to be learned and that they have not yet reached the ceiling of all they can do. And if each subsequent--until we have a name, let's call it a level--level were significantly more difficult to attain than the last so much the better. After all, if it were easy what would be the point?
And if it's not entirely period, who gives a rat's backside? I would suggest to any who are truly concerned with periodicity to take a harder look at the white scarf itself. No, what matters most is the furthering of the art and if we need to give the community something to shoot for in order to do so then I say so be it.
Tora
AnTir QRC |
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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RuaidhriMacCuileann
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 08/21/2006 8:37 PM |
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And it is not like the rapier community doesn't already have it's own award already for those of you not paying attention.
An award for those who aren't paying attention? Wow! I didn't know the 10% award was official! ;>
Just to be a troublemaker with the extra awards thing, I'd like to point out that the pursuit of honors and shiny bits was more or less the full-time profession of most courtiers back in the day. Having said that, I doubt many will dispute that it was tacky then, too.
One problem with trying to create a higher-level award than the OWS is the fact that the OWS is a grant-level award. To go higher, you'd need to have a peerage level award. Luckily, such an award already exists, and it is quite a difficult award to earn. The Companions of the Laurel don't invite just anybody in to their club! However, quite a few dons have contributed such great research and honed their skills to such a point that they have received such invitations. Some day, when I grow up, I want to be like them!
Regards,
W. Scott Simmons
aka Ruaidhri Mac Cuileann dal gCais
cadet to Don Tyrus of Misty Haven
"There's no shame in coming from Texas. The only shame is in having to come back."
-Kinky Friedman, humorist, country musician, mystery writer, Texas gubernatorial candidate
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/21/2006 11:31 PM |
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Doormouse.
I was not thinking ego stroke when I did this, more like "What can I accomplish" I was giving it thought, and I like the idea that Romon brought up about guilds. For me, I would lable winning tournys as ego stroke, and for my money, I would like to keep with the SCA's mission over all (which isn't winning tournys). Doing something like guilds. Say we could structure various guilds that would specialize in a certian geographica area, or a certian master. Progress within that guild would mean having quantifiable expertiese of the espoused teachings of the guild. Merit badges was one thing you came up with, but as an old Boyscout, I rather appriciated the mertbadge process in that that it was a lot of work to achive the good ones, and they did help make the scout a more well rounded person.
So, what about that? Doing some sort of guild process could link up people with instructors that know their subject matter, help them become better fencers with a solid background in the field of study. I like the idea far more than just hanging a dangly on something, and as the subject was initial communicated to me as, would be one that might help fuel the acedemic side of what we do.
In one of these threads, somone was asking about Saviolo, and who's doing it. Wouldn't it be grand that if we had a guild we could associate with those members and as a group contribute both in personal study, as well as creating documentation for lessons and the like that would help teach it? I'm in this SCA thing to learn more and to help teach what I do learn. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/22/2006 2:18 PM |
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Posted By Samauel on 08-21-2006 11:31 PM
I would like to keep with the SCA's mission over all (which isn't winning tournys). Doing something like guilds. Say we could structure various guilds that would specialize in a certian geographica area, or a certian master. Progress within that guild would mean having quantifiable expertiese of the espoused teachings of the guild. ....
So, what about that? Doing some sort of guild process could link up people with instructors that know their subject matter, help them become better fencers with a solid background in the field of study. I like the idea far more than just hanging a dangly on something, and as the subject was initial communicated to me as, would be one that might help fuel the acedemic side of what we do.
I am thinking that this will most likely be one of the topics during the forum, and at that time we can discuss ideas in much more detail - but let me first say this:
One guild. Not one guild per area. Not one guild per "master". One guild for the Kingdom of An Tir.
If there is enough support within the community to "officialize" some sort of "guild system" for sword based combat within An Tir, then I am totally willing to help out in any way. This is something that I can support. But only if it is setup in such a fashion that it is well planned out by a representative group from across the Kingdom, with a clearly defined "charter" that documents the vision/goals of the guild, it's purpose, processes to manage activities within the guild, how the organizational structure is laid out, committments, expectations, etc, etc....
Sure, it sounds like a lot of writing and pointless red tape, but it isnt. Hell, that could probably be completed in ~ 5 pages. The idea is that by defining such areas in the beginning, there is less room for confusion and arguments down the road. Be clear with what you are asking for, and you will have a better chance of getting it.  Most people do not know how to make a request. They think they do, but they never actually ask. They just "hint". Let's not do that.
FYI - I will not support this concept if it appears that the solution will weaken, or further divide the strained relations within the rapier community even more so than we are now.
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 08/22/2006 2:49 PM |
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If people think they need a guild to validate their place in the rapier community then by all means, form yourselves a "guild". I won't join.
Also, whatever "guild" you may want to establish must remain separate from the administration of rapier in this kingdom. There can be no tie between membership in the guild and authorization or serving as a marshal. Most of you won't remember, but we've been down that path before.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/22/2006 6:36 PM |
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See, I do not see it is validating someons's "place" within rapier. If done right, I see it as a method to enable a more cohesive community.
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:82
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| 08/22/2006 10:02 PM |
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"In one of these threads, somone was asking about Saviolo, and who's
doing it. Wouldn't it be grand that if we had a guild we could
associate with those members and as a group contribute both in personal
study, as well as creating documentation for lessons and the like that
would help teach it? I'm in this SCA thing to learn more and to help
teach what I do learn."
Personally, I think something like this is a great idea. Not because anyone should be craving titles or paperwork, but because it facilitates learning. Having some kind of registry or established hierarchy of people who know or teach particular styles presents the novice fighter with a list of instructors to contact.
I think it would be fascinating to sit down at an event one day and find true students of divergent styles facing off in a tourney. Possibly it may even inspire some of those topend fighters who no longer play to come round again because now they can play up various 'schools' and add some new flavor to the game.
Perhaps my thoughts are too WMA for the SCA, who knows. But it would be fun to watch.
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/22/2006 11:11 PM |
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Kristoph,
I agree that this might add flavor to the SCA. I also would say that it should be independant of WS awards and the like. I would love to see a Cappo fighter face a Spanish fighter. That'd be cool. I like things that add to rapier, not try to destory it. We have been looking for something that would ramp up our study of classical masters. We have had our pioneers in this field and I would love to see it more commonplace. |
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/31/2006 11:28 PM |
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If anyone is still interested in going. I can't do it on Sunday, as it is my wedding aniversary, and my wife has plans. I can do it after the WS meeting on Sat. or any time Monday.
Topics:
New rules: What are they and what changes.
Period fight styles: Is it time to change the game to formalize training
Rapier outfiting: Examples of what's out there, who has it and where to get it
Rapier fighter progression: Would there be anything that would benift the individual
I would not mind having any other sugestions. Also, we will review past topics for any new business on them. Please feel free to contact me by phone or email
Don Samuael
MKA Damon Pipkin
damon_pipkin@hotmail.com
206-235-4871 |
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