Draven
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 04/01/2006 10:57 PM |
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Greetings,
I have a question for something that came across my at a tournament about a couple of weeks ago. During the TRP's, a fighter produced a fan with made out of wood, metal and canvas. I was told that this was indeed a valid secondary (defensive). While I wasn't the MIC of the tournament, I gave my opinion as treat it as an experimental secondary. I have only encountered this type of secondary once before: it was a tournament in Lions Gate (Vancouver), when a Donna from Phoenix attended a tournament (3 years ago). Apparently in the South (I5 across the border and deeper), this secondary is utilized in a common fashion. While my travels haven't brought me to my Southern Cousins in about a year, I haven't encountered anything like this.
I am seeking input on the fans for a defensive secondary, Have you seen them? Have you fought against them? Have you fought with one?
From an official standpoint from PRM (Tir Righ) or KRM, what do you guys think?
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Draven Mac Raith
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion |
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Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 04/02/2006 7:23 PM |
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I recall the same fan Draven is mentioned. My issue with it was that the fan's base had openings in the steel tines that could catch a blade, and seeing as the base was capable of being opened and closed, I felt uncomfortable facing it... that and the wielder essentially called us a bunch of rubes because we hadn't faced something that "everyone" uses down south, and that the weapon had been okayed by a certain WS, so our opinions were moot anyway.
In the end, the fighter chose the honourable route and declined to use the fan, but alike Draven, I was curious about this "extensive" use of what I find a fairly useless parrying device, but a potentially effective trapping tool.
Gwydion
...whose comments may offend, but then I can't please everyone  |
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 04/03/2006 5:57 AM |
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I saw the fan in question. I would have passed it as a matter of course.
Read the ABCs.
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 04/03/2006 9:44 AM |
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Fans are a valid secondary as Alvarro said.
As far as facing them they are really a useless secondary when open since you really have 0 leverage, Although as a distraction they can be devastating if wielded correctly.
Duncan Tadio down here uses one that is steel and leather for the sole purpose of distraction, Hint here when you crack it open quickly it produces a gunshot type of "pop" which can startle people into doing all kinds of odd things when their nerves are jacked up.
There may be someone out there that can actually use an open fan as a parry device effectively I just have never seen it... as a baton they are the same as any other Baton.
choose to fight against them or not as you see fit however if I let them on my field and you decide to not fight them while its your choice it is considered yeilding the fight and a loss in tournament.
Utgar |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 04/03/2006 12:56 PM |
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Personally - I do NOT feel that fans are a valid secondary. I know aout Duncan Taddio's fan, for which he actually got a Sr. Marshal to write on his card that he was authorized for Combat Fan - or something like that.  Besides the issue with the Marshal, to my mind the An Tir Rapier Rules are not written to allow the use of fans in combat, with a possible minor exception.
As Albert says, closed they are really nothing more than a baton. If you can guarantee that the fan STAYS closed.
Open, however, I can only see them as a cloak in regards to how you might choose to get some use out of i. Beyond that they are more like a blade trapping device - just asking for trouble. It is due to this factor (of MOST fans) that I would NOT allow them at all, and why I feel that the current rules already disallow their use.
Please dont force this to be more explicit ;) |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 04/03/2006 2:30 PM |
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That's a bit retentive.
I don't like fans either, but the defensive secondary section of the rules is open ended for a reason.
I'm sorry, but I have hard time believing a fan, of any configuration, is going to be even REMOTELY as good as my plain ole dagger or rapier quillons at trapping a blade. It just aint gonna happen. The rules are written for the FIGHTER, not the weapon.
If you aren't going to expect the fighter to behave, then they shouldn't have been authorized. If they have been authorized, then for gods sake expect them to behave as such, and if they don't, then pull their card.
Way, way to much anal-ness going on these days. |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 04/03/2006 5:27 PM |
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I have a very simple opinion on this.
It doesn't fit into the scope of the ABrC's.
It doesn't fit into pre 1600 Europe...
Show me one place in writing that rapier and fan were used, or a master that included fan as a combination to be learned...
Dormouse/Craig |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 04/03/2006 7:40 PM |
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Posted By Dormouse on 04-03-2006 5:27 PM
I have a very simple opinion on this.
It doesn't
It doesn't
Show me one place in writing that rapier and
Dormouse/Craig
I figured Craig would beat me to the answer I was going to post. The only pictures of period fans I have seen look like flattened bouquets of flowers, not the folding kind. Now, I admit that I haven't done a whole lot of looking for any others.
Paul
(not quite sure what happened to the quote...but I did have a kitten help me with my typing, so maybe it is his fault) |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 04/03/2006 11:04 PM |
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Posted By Alvarro on 04-03-2006 2:30 PM
That's a bit retentive.
I don't like
I'm sorry, but I have hard time believing a
If you aren't going to expect the
Way, way to much anal-ness going on these days.
Hmm - something wierd is going on with the quote feature.
Anyways - Randy, to address your comment, no it is not retentive. it is factual. Imagine , if you will, an open fan. OK - now imagine that the fighter moves his open fan to intercept a thrust from their opponent. In doing this, the other fighter's rapier "punches" through said fan.
Move the fan. Close the fan. Drop the fan. Does'nt really matter.
Instant trap. And one ruined fan |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 04/03/2006 11:06 PM |
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Oh - and Draven....no, the use of a fan as a secondary is NOT very common south of the border.
I can really only think of two people off the top of my head that have really tried to use such a dumb secondary weapon.
Duncan Taddio and....um....well....
Me. But I am feeling MUCH better now.
;)
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 04/04/2006 1:00 AM |
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Posted By Dormouse on 04-03-2006 5:27 PM
I have a very simple opinion on this.
It doesn't fit into="" scope="" of="" the="" abrc="" s="">
It doesn't fit into="" pre="" 1600="" europe="">
Show me one place in writing that rapier and fan were="" used="" or="" a="" master="" that="" included=""> fan as="" a="" combination="" to="" be="" learned="">
Dormouse/Craig yeah, the quote thing is ...fun... I like.
Anyway, back to being all serious 'n' such...
Dormouse, show me a period manual that includes a rubber chicken, RBG, "beer mug" or other such frippery.
I mean, other than Quintano.
My point is that whether we like it or not, whether it fits our idea of what should be allowed or not, it *is* allowed. And marshals need to act accordingly.
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 04/04/2006 1:03 AM |
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Posted By jgreywolf on 04-03-2006 11:04 PM Posted By Alvarro on 04-03-2006 2:30 PM
That's a bit retentive.
I don't like fans the="" of="" a="" reason="">
for open="" is="" rules="" section="" secondary="" defensive="" but="" either="">
I'm sorry, but I have hard time believing a fan, the="" of="" a="" even="" to="" or="" be="" as="" any="" not="" is="" rules="">
for are="" the="" happen="" gonna="" aint="" just="" it="" blade="" trapping="" at="" quillons="" rapier="" dagger="" ole="" plain="" my="" good="" remotely="" going="" configuration="">
If you aren't going to expect the fighter and="" if="" to="" as="" have="" card="">
for been="" if="" authorized="" shouldn?t="" behave="">
Way, way to much anal-ness going on these days. Hmm - something wierd is going on with the quote feature.> Anyways - Randy, to address your comment, no it is not retentive. it is factual. imagine="" ,="" if="" you="" will="" an="" open=""> fan. ok="" -="" now="" imagine="" that="" the=""> fighter moves="" his="" open=""> fan to="" intercept="" a="" thrust=""> from their="" opponent="" in="" doing="" this="" the="" other=""> fighter's rapier="" punches="" through="" said=""> fan.> Move the fan. close="" the=""> fan. drop="" the=""> fan. does="" nt="" really="" matter=""> Instant trap. And one ruined fan :="">
And again, that still isn't going to be NEARLY as entrapped as what I can do with a set of straight quillons. I guarantee you that if I decide to, I can trap anyone's blade decisively with those alone.
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 04/04/2006 7:46 AM |
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I'm with Alvarro on this one.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 04/04/2006 9:17 AM |
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| I would have to so i too agree with Alvarro on this one. Not neccassarily useful, but still legal. |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 04/04/2006 3:34 PM |
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"And again, that still isn't going to be NEARLY as entrapped as what I can do with a set of straight quillons. I guarantee you that if I decide to, I can trap anyone's blade decisively with those alone."
I agree, straight quillions bind rather well Alvarro... my main concern was the openings at the base of the fan where no material covered and a blade could pass through very easily. Personally I was more concerned for my blade, than the legality of a fan. Now if the tines were covered from base to tips, I would have no issue with someone using it, but would request my foe think twice because I don't care who he is... unless he's better with a single sword than I am with sword and dagger, it's going to be a quick fight in my favour.
Gwydion
-still arguing after 8 years... sigh, I miss Thore... mayhaps if I mention fibreglass? |
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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Draven
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 04/04/2006 5:26 PM |
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My thoughts on this is I would rather be safe with this in mind.
If I were MIC'ing the tourney, I wouldn't allow it. The construction, unfamilarity (from my standpoint), and minimal use (from the fighter to Kingdom wide).
I wouldn't want to have an incident, due to any of these factors, given as the MIC's report has a box for preventative measures
"WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY NEXT TIME?"
Well... I wouldn't allow said secondary into the tournament.
That would be my answer.
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Draven Mac Raith
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 04/04/2006 7:53 PM |
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Gwydion,
Same thing again. Easy in, easy out.
Worried about your blade? Nonsense. *No* fan will ever be more of a risk to your blade than *any* swept hilt, with thicker bars, more openings, and a firmer attachment to the hand than is possible with a fan. |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 04/04/2006 8:11 PM |
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Draven,
I'm going to borrow Eric's fan and show up the next event you MiC, and I'm going to fight with it. There is nothing in the rules preventing me from doing so, and your mandate as a senior marshal is to enforce the rules, not your personal opinion. Are you going to pull my card for doing so?
Good luck with that.
If I follow your reasoning I'm going to disallow fighters from using fiberglass at every tourney from now on. I can do that for reasons of safety...fiberglass is uncommon, people who use it tend to be inexperienced, and therefor dangerous, can't tell what materials are inside it without cutting it apart during inspection...
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 04/04/2006 10:04 PM |
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Son of a *****
Stupid website ate my reply. Lets make this quicker this time. Sigh.
If you are MiC, you can disallow any weapon that you want. If you do nto want fiberglass in the tourney, then you can say no. Just like we have done at 12th night the past few years. So yes, as a Senior Marshal you CAN disallow something like fans, just because you want to.
As to the comments on fans. I have seen firsthand how an open fan has caused a blade trapping issue during a fight. Have you? The only reason that I have this bias, is because I have actually seen it happen.
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 04/04/2006 10:32 PM |
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well, this is getting to be an interesting thread...
I guess I'll just have to get a fan and test it out at practice for a while, as opinions seem to differ, and those differing responses are coming from combatants whose opinions I've come to respect...
and, just because, I'll see if I can find any period reference to a fan, Dormouse.
Gwydion
(who is happy he's stayed a junior marshal) |
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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