|
|
 |
|
 |
| |
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
 |
| 03/17/2006 10:37 AM |
 Alert
|
Ramon brough up a good point in another thread that I thought might make a good conversation and I certianly could use some clarity on. Here is the snip of what Ramon Said:
Posted By jgreywolf on 03-16-2006 5:13 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This also brings up the conversation of enforcement again. The Rapier Marshals (as a whole) have not been enforcing the rules as needed traditionally - and we all need to step this up. But this is a topic for a different thread ;)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So based on this I would like to hear what people think we as marshals are or arent doing well. I know that there are some that think the rules dont apply to them.... I saw this at Ursulmas during armor inspections.... we had alot of fighters that we had to send back to tape up holes in gloves and sleeves and such that exposed skin as well as few that didnt have valid penetration resistant clothing in the right places, and I got argument thoguh polite from a few individuals... being the MIC and having the ability to deny people play means I won but I would rather not have had to deal with that at all. I was also told at one point by another senior marshal (Im not naming names its been handled) that we were over inspecting for a tournament. I didnt feel our inspections were too heavy for tourney... we didnt punch test anything we just looked for the obvious issues with weapons and gear and looked for maintanance of overlap and no skin showing ... asked the standard questions and moved on. I would love to hear othes opinions or views on this as well.
Comment away 
Utgar
|
|
|
|
|
Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
|
| 03/17/2006 11:20 AM |
Alert
|
I'll comment on inspections in tournaments.
All fighter's armour should be inspected and passed at practice, BEFORE a tournament.
When you inspect at a tournament, you are looking for things that may have broken, degraded, or have been forgotten. You are not checking the basic protective ability of someones armour, unless you see something you have a serious concern about. It is a safety check, not a thorough review.
If, for example, I am inspecting Mssr. Prosperes armour before a tourney, I will give him a quick once-over to make sure he remembered to wear pants that day. I'll look for things that may have happened during practice that he would not have noticed...large dents in the mask, rust, etc. I'll ask him if he has anything new, or if it is his usual gear. New stuff I will ask if it was inspected previously. If not, I will do so. If it all looks good, off he goes. Nice and quick.
If it is a new fighter or a fighter I haven't seen before, I will be more throrough, checking out their mask and gorget more than anything, as those are things that protect life. I'm not really checking out the fighter at that point, though. I'm checking out their home marshal, to see if they are passing borderline stuff or not.
I always assume honour on the part of a fighter, not duplicity. If I have to look for, and expect, duplicity, then less authorizations need to be given out... And specifically, meticulously looking for the smallest flaw in a fighters armour, during a pre-bout tourney inspection is not a safety check, it's an indication that you do not beleive that person to be safe, aware of their own risks, or to have followed the rules.
|
|
Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
|
|
Mughain
The Meepiest!
Provost
Posts:76
|
| 03/17/2006 11:46 AM |
Alert
|
I agree that with Alvarro in that the in depth inspection and passing of a fighters armour is something that should be done at their practice and with their home marshal.
The inspection at the event should be the visual check of "did everything get remembered, was there a big mask dent missed, bent blade, etc."
I don't recall feeling that Ursalmas was excessive in its armor inspection. What I saw were appropriate visual checks, fairly quick. Maybe I didn't see what the complainers saw or experienced.
Gloves are also one of those things I always check, as to me tears and broken seams happen fairly frequently (of all the casualties of this sport). I think a quick look at splayed hands takes um....10-20 seconds max for both hands?
The rules for authorization also indicate that the fighter is aware and promises they will follow all of the armor requirements, therefore they should all know better than showing up at an event with gloves that have holes, exposed skin, etc. These quick checks should still be occuring at tournaments, and I think there should be little to no resistance from fighters entering the event to the inspection marshall's input.
If I am trying to enter a tournament with ripped gloves, a non-legally dented mask, exposed skin, and I get kept from playing, IMHO It's certainly not the marshalls fault. I agreed that I would follow the rules in the ARBC's when I got the little yellow card signed. |
|
HL Mughain inghean Donnghaille
Cheryl Glover
|
|
|
Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
|
| 03/17/2006 8:11 PM |
Alert
|
First of all, that senior marshal needs to seriously consider why he's a marshal, and if he's not willin' to abide by the rules he needs to resign as a marshal. There's no such thing as inspecting too heavy, with the caveat that you're inspecting what is called out by the rules.
It's been my experience that a significant number of marshals don't have the cajones to say no when required by the rules. They don't wish to be the bad guy.
It's the marshal's job to be the bad guy and say no when the rules are not being followed. As well as the appropriate discipline when required. ie no you can't fight in this tournament you don't have your auth card... Or no you can't use that unapproved blade... I think you get my drift.
My genereal rule of thumb is if you're not willin' to tell your best friend no you can't X, then you shouldn't be a marshal.
And to answer the question before it's asked, yes I've had to tell freinds that no they can't do X, in fact I had to tell my wife she couldn't do X. So if I can do it, any marshal that's doin' his job should be able to tell someone no.
Craig
|
|
I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
|
|
Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
|
| 03/20/2006 9:21 AM |
Alert
|
| I guess my question would be: why are some people complaining so much about being over-inspected? Are they mad because someone caught a questionable piece of equipment? Are they mad because it takes longer and they want to start the tournament sooner? Over-inspection may be time-consuming, but I don't see that it does any harm. If the marshal takes an extra 30 seconds in the inspection and finds an armor violation, even something small like a little exposed skin, is it worth it? We should all know if we have garb that doesn't quite maintain overlap or a hole in our glove, and we should expect to be sent back to tape it up. |
|
|
|
|
Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
|
| 03/21/2006 6:45 AM |
Alert
|
| I haven't experienced any over inspection at tournaments or wars or the like here either. The thing that i think about when i am doing inspections is that these rules are in place for a reason (i.e. safety of the fighter and his opponent). Being that this is a "friendly" sport we as marshals owe it to any fighter out on our fields to do our part and do a double check on safety equipment prior to a fight. I myself really appreciate a good inspection, because that way i know that i will be more safe as well as the fact that i will be less likely to hurt someone else. |
|
Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
|
|
Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
|
| 03/21/2006 7:52 AM |
Alert
|
Speaking as a fighter who doesn't marshall...
What the hell? Complain about inspection taking to long?? What an idiotic idea... I'm sorry, I am the kind of fighter who makes sure my stuff is up to speed, but complaining that a tourney marshall takes too long??
That's like not getting your brakes checked when they take your tires off.. they're there, they're doing their job... I'd rather have a marshall take a little longer and "catch" something I've missed than give me a once over and miss the something that'll "catch"
I'm sorry if things are taking too long for whoever has to have things done lickity split... get over it, it's the SCA ... NOTHING happens on time....sheesh..
there ya go rant over. |
|
|
|
|
D'Artois
Novice
Posts:9
|
| 03/21/2006 10:35 AM |
Alert
|
My two cents…
If you want Inspections to go faster show up early and ready for inspection. Encourage your fellow fighters to do so too.
Why are the inspections going slow? Is there enough Marshals doing inspections? If you're an authorized Marshall, get inspected and volunteer to the MIC. They may, or may not welcome the help, but it never hurts to ask.
Bring an equipment/armor “first aid kit” (mine has various types of tape, blunts, a diamond file, spare gloves, etc.) to the field. Thus, if some thing minor fails, you have the ability to deal with it immediately. If you find it hard to “be the bad guy”, it will easier to say “Look this bit of gear won’t pass. Take this, fix it, and come back”. You provide a ready solution to the problem you have identified.
It is your responsibility to make sure that your equipment is up to standards. If a marshal points out something that fails, it’s not their fault but yours. If you fail a fighters gear and they give you some static, remind them of this. Be polite and civil, but remind them. Safety is everyone’s responsibility.
OK, back to work for me. |
|
Lord Christian D'Artois
Man At Arms to HL Diego Ramirez de Salamanca
Scholar in the Escuela de la Espada |
|
|
Sebastien
Has a lot to say...
Posts:208
|
| 03/21/2006 11:13 AM |
Alert
|
Here are my two cents based on being someone who spends most of the first part of my day at tournaments doing armour inspections.
There are usually have enough marshals doing inspections, however if a senior is training a junior you are going to get a slower inspection. Be kind, after all you could be that junior. And if you are not, why aren't you :-)
If you want a faster inspection, go to a marshal that is familliar with you. The folks that come to me that attend my normal practice get a much faster inspection then someone I've never seen before.
From the inspectiors view point one problem ends up being getting people out there to be inspected. It always happens the we begin to shut down the inspection prosses and someone who has been talking on the side lines suddenly remembers he needs to be inspected. This is mostly annoying for those of us who would also like to get inspected and get some warm ups in.
Personally the first question I ask someone is "Do you have your noraml gear on?" If someone has just finished some new piece of gear I'll give it a heavier inspection because it probably has not been inspected at practice.
So what other rules do people feel the marshals are not enforcing?
|
|
Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
|
|
jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
|
| 03/21/2006 2:16 PM |
Alert
|
So you want to know what "we" are or are not doing correctly. Lets look at some random examples that I think will highlight the major areas (all true - but dont ask me for details):
Lack of communication. Lets say you as a Marshal provide a warning to Fred for not calling shots (assumption being that they were explicit enough that everyone could tell). You give another warning in the tourney, and finally ask them to leave. In this scenario, or even a scenario where Fred is not botted from the tourney, but still recieved warning(s), no notification/communication is being shared with the larger Rapier Marshalate community. This is needed to give a heads up if Fred decides to head to some other area. (now, we dont want this to be a gossiping area - just a heads up for potential issues)
Worse issue - NO corrective action being taken for issues concerning transgressions in the face of the rules. Block calling, excessive force, etc, etc...)
Armor and/or weapons that should NOT be on the field are being allowed in some areas - and when the fighter in question goes elsewhere, is amazed that they cant fight. But - Marshal X said they were fine.
I think that is good for starters. ;) |
|
Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
|
|
Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
|
| 03/21/2006 4:43 PM |
Alert
|
Lack of communication, I have always talked about this with other marshals but have never had an opportunity to need to boot anyone or even severely warn them. So I guess the question I have is other than our reporting this type of stuff in our MIC/quarterly/whatever reports is there a good forum to actually call out these transgressions? Maybe a restricted senior marshal list or something that you can only post "name, date, transgression, resolution/action" this could be moderated so that it wouldn’t become a gossip fest? Does this exist? This forum is great for the discussion of these things but I dont like the idea of posting some bodies issues for the entire populouse to see.
So the other question I have is that from the sound of it there have been some instances of this incorrect or "blind eye" activity noticed by yourself and or others in the marshal hierarchy..... Has there been some action taken to notify the offending marshal(‘s) in order to get explanation and or bring them into line with the proper processes? I know we have processes that are in place to take action on this sort of thing I’m presuming we are using them. And if were not we should be.
Utgar
|
|
|
|
|
Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
|
| 03/21/2006 5:43 PM |
Alert
|
Actually, I have to say...
I take personal offence to people saying, or implying, that I dislike having every inch of my armour gone over every time I want to fight in a tournament, because I am trying to cheat. The rules, and the intent of them, is fairly clear. Albert has *again* pointed that out.
I would say that the biggest flaw I am seeing in the marshallate, that is cropping up in a few places, is that some people see being a marshal as something other than a *service* position, designed to make things easier for people. Safety comes from training, not rules. I am still seeing a real lack of training, so I suppose it is no surprise to see an extra emphasis being placed on rules.
|
|
Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
|
|
Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
|
| 03/22/2006 1:13 PM |
Alert
|
I agree with what Albert is saying...... the rules are very specific.
We inspect to the safety standards and then get told were overinspecting.... I dont disagree with Albert that overinspection is wrong.... what im saying is that the definition is faulty or maybe its the various perceptions that dont match
Maybe what we need in the next set of rules is a checklist that people can print up for tourney and then all they need do is run down the 30 second list. Ramon what about it is there time for a late addition ???
I know my check list it goes like this.
1: look at the weapons for bad bends, rust, Cap, Nicks or burrs and tape color. at this time look at secondaries as well.
2: look at gloves and clothing for holes or big gaps.
3: tug sleevs, and pant legs where needed
4: ask if this is their normal clothing/gear, "Oh you have a "triplette" under that good"
5: look at the gorget to make sure its there and not falling off
6: give a small push/feel of the mask (make sure it doesnt jsut flip up and off or have a big soft spot in the center)
7: While the entire time giving them the once over for sharps and or obvious problems(skin, tears,whatever)
8: Your good to go and off to the field Thanks have a good fighting day *Smile*
Thats it takes about 30 seconds or less, how this can be construed as an over inspection is way beyond me. If this is an overinspection I guess that till the KRM says in writing "We wont pull your warrant for safety problems on your field" Ill be an over-inspector
Utgar
*This post over-inspected by inspector 11* |
|
|
|
|
Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
|
| 03/22/2006 6:06 PM |
Alert
|
No offense taken Albert Im just glad people are reading what I say LOL
I was thinking of a more finite list that leaves no interpretation at all, in section 3 of that particular appendix it says "test if neccesarry". If I havent seen a fighter before I dont know that he triple ties those floppy blade catching sleeves inside his gloves and tugging slightly is a good "Test" for me to see.
Other than that I guess based on this I am being a slight bit zealouse in my inspections but I would defend what I do with the statement that it is after all for your safety
So the event inspection based on this is look at the weapons look at the person and send em out there? presuming you dont see their drape hanging half off.
Utgar
|
|
|
|
|
Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
|
| 03/23/2006 10:17 AM |
Alert
|
Interesting,
Im relatively new to the whole Rapier in the SCA thing so I thankfully dont remember the times your talking about and frankly it astounds me sometimes that people dont want to learn the rules of the game just for the sake of knowing them.
Ok so on to one of the other questions.... Communication? How or where can we facilitate this so that we all know who needs a new weapon or has a suspect doublet?
If there is already something other than our standard reporting in place what or where is it? and if not do we really need something other than the standard reporting avenues?
Lets here some of those grand ideas flow.
Utgar
|
|
|
|
|
jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
|
| 03/25/2006 11:53 AM |
Alert
|
Utgar - the An Tir Rapier Marshalate mailing list is intended for some of those communication bits that you were asking about. And yes, those kinds of items should also be included in your quarterly reports (if the issue is more serious, dont wait - report up the chain right away!).
As to tugging on sleeves and such - I have done that in the past, but it is just so that I have a quick easy inspection of whether or not the fighters protection will remain in place as they move around. But yeah, its a sometimes thing just based on what I see. |
|
Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.6
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
|