KitH
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 03/02/2006 1:22 PM |
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Hi,
I noticed that in the new Society Rapier Rules, grasping blades is allowed. In Conventions, section 4.H says:
"In heavy rapier and cut and thrust rapier, fighters may choose to grasp blades, rather than
parry them. If the blade that is grasped moves or twists in the grasping hand, that hand is
deemed disabled. Grasping techniques shall be used only to immobilize a blade, not to
bend it or wrest it from the opponent's grip. Prolonged wrestling over a grasped blade is
sufficient grounds for calling a ‘hold” and forcing a release of the blade."
Is this a recent addition to the rules?
Of course, this is NOT allowed in the current version of the AnTir Rules...
Kit |
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Kit Heinrichs
SCA: Christopher MacEveny, Cadet to Don Magnus von Bremen |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 03/02/2006 1:49 PM |
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Blade grasping is not new to the Society rules. Some kingdoms, like An Tir, chose to not allow it.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 03/03/2006 3:11 AM |
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| ....unfortunately. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Jon Barber
Scholar
Posts:25
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| 03/03/2006 2:45 PM |
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Posted By Albert_Faulke on 03-03-2006 1:02 PM
Not really. I've always thought blade-grasping was a "last-ditched-please-don't-stab-me" kind of move. The times I've seen it used, in Atenveldt, it was pretty much "grab the blade, pull the opponent on to yours."
Albert
We got better 
Depends on who's doing it. I see it from some of the better folks as "Oops - you let your tip get too close to me so now I'm going to immobilize it while I run you through". That's not the norm, sadly, but when it's done right it's effective.
John Patrick
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 03/06/2006 9:10 AM |
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I played with the "catch and release" rules set in Ealdormere and really enjoyed it. Unfortunately, there were some habits that I had to kick when I came back  It certainly wasn't something I planned, but sometimes it was the logical thing to do.
I usually used it when in close quarters. As I have no idea how to use my range effectively, this is most of my fights. If his/her sword was in the way of a cut, just move it and do the cut. So easy. Every time I used it I thought of the kill shot Liam Neeson used at the end of Rob Roy on the fop. Just grip his rapier tightly and crush him with your broadsword. Also easy. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 03/06/2006 6:14 PM |
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I'm particularily fond of the "grab blade, move it out of the way, (wait, he's grabbed mine too???) Ok, I'll lift my knee into his groin and smash my forehead into his nose, that'll make him let go.........."
Wait, maybe I watch to many movies....
I do understand that it's period combat to do all these things, but I also understand the "sport" rules in the SCA... (generalized safety et al), but I can still guide your blade without grasping it as it stands now..
But then again.. it could be just me ;-) |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 03/09/2006 8:32 PM |
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But Bert, Hollywood wouldn't do it if it weren't true...... 
Also in my opinion folks need to be concetratin' on how to use the sword, not grabbin' blades...
IMNSHO if yer close enought to grab the blade, yer too bloody close. The idea is to "reach out and touch" someone from a long way away in such a manner that you don't get hit...
Craig |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 03/10/2006 7:06 AM |
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Posted By Albert_Faulke on 03-09-2006 7:35 PM
I'd much prefer to be able to block a person's sword arm instead of being able to grab a blade.
I'm with you on that.
Raoul
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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luaithrenn
Free Scholar
Posts:55
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| 03/12/2006 3:33 PM |
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Mouse wrote:
"IMNSHO if yer close enought to grab the blade, yer too bloody close. The idea is to "reach out and touch" someone from a long way away in such a manner that you don't get hit..."
For some of us, that's more difficult than for others. Mouse, for example, is tall with long arms, making it much easier to stay out of reach than myself or, say, Amber (up in Cranehaven). But we learn to stay out of reach for as long as we can and then dash in and out, rather than grasping at the blade. Grabbing a blade would certainly make things easier...hmmm, I'll just wait until my opponent makes a move, grab his blade, and then kill him. Nahhhh... Being "shorter" has made many of us work on technique a great deal more than I think we might have if we were tall with a long reach and could just one-shot people on any given day.
~~luaithrenn
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Luaithrenn the Falconer's Wife
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 03/13/2006 6:29 AM |
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| woot for short people! |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 03/13/2006 8:46 PM |
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Albert is mucho righto here...
No matter what height you are job one is control of the blade...
He's also correct in that if I can't hold a sword I've lost the fight, just as much as if I were dead. Most folks forget this, and get punked in the head for their trouble.
Craig |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
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| 04/22/2006 7:51 AM |
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Morning folks,
Thank you Albert & Dormouse.
I wish I heard that more often ... control the blade BEFORE gaining close misura to strike.
The one thing I can't stand is getting hit like a freight train by someone who 'jumped in' and just nails you. Yeah, yeah I know they got through my defense and all, but hey it happens. But it wouldn't happen if they would have had more control of the opponent's blade first, and also practice more misura drills ... guess that's on my wish list as you can't make a person do what you want unless they want to. |
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Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 04/22/2006 8:48 AM |
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MollyModine wrote:
"The one thing I can't stand is getting hit like a freight train by someone who 'jumped in' and just nails you. Yeah, yeah I know they got through my defense and all, but hey it happens. But it wouldn't happen if they would have had more control of the opponent's blade first, and also practice more misura drills ... guess that's on my wish list as you can't make a person do what you want unless they want to."
I hate to break it to you, but if they control your blade and dive right in you get nailed just as hard... You not have a prepared defense is not your opponents fault. |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
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| 04/22/2006 5:55 PM |
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Sorry Paul I don't think email is the best form to try and explain this as clearly you don't understand my point nor have you seen the situation. It isn't a total lack of a defense situation on my part as per say.
And this is a game of touch lets try to remember. Someone hitting so hard as to bend a bated blade, where they are just jumping in .. literally with their feet off the group and pile driving me is too excessive. There is no control in that. And BTW Paul ... an opponent SHOULD be able to control their attack so as to not hit their opponent with excessive force EVEN IF they get through the defense.
But clearly you missed the point of my email from the get go, as seen by your retort to the other side. *shrugs* |
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Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 04/23/2006 8:45 AM |
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Molly,
I didn't actually miss your point, but I did get you to actually explain it more completely. I hope that you have cautioned you opponent about his (or her) technique. |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
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| 04/23/2006 10:36 PM |
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Hi Simon/Paul
Damn email ... so quick and easy to use and so difficult to actually explain something clearly sometimes.
(no expressions, no voice tones, no visuals)
But anyhow,
I wish I could say this matter has been address to my satisfaction and all but it hasn't. *shrugs*
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Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 04/24/2006 10:44 AM |
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Molly,
If people are diving at you which is what it sounds like then there needs to be a chat with them and their authorizing marshal in regared to their training, This is not only unsafe but really garbage technique. Not only does it put you at risk it puts them at risk as well, lucky for them you havent put a stop thrust in the way as they would then be gacking themselves as well as hitting you hard. Sounds like you are doing this however already (the discussion part)
Blade grasping in this instance wouldnt really do anything except make an unacceptable situation worse since if they are diving forward with no control and you grab the blade and push it offline it is going to put alot of stress on not only the blade but your wrist and something is likely to snap.... Everyone can see the problem here. Snapped wrist = Badly damaged fighter, Snapped blade = possibly skewered and permanently damaged fighter.
As far as blade grasping in general, I gotta say Im with the "why bother" crowd, It might look really neat in a hollywood sense but if I need to grab the blade in order to redirect it away from my body how much control do I really have in this particualr fight? Simple redirection of the blade or a body void is safer and more controlled in my opinion
Otger |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 04/25/2006 7:20 PM |
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Otger,
Well said! I think you're on to something here.
Dormouse |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Arffuidsson
Free Scholar
Posts:71
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| 05/20/2006 9:33 PM |
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Greetings,
I have to agree with Otger and Dormouse. Blade grabbing should not be needed.
While grappling and such is nifty, we do not need to use it. If you are that close, using the off-hand simply to displace your opponent's blade so you can complete your action (i.e., a "kill") should be the most that you sould need to do.
Staffan Arffuidsson |
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Paul La Rue
Novice
Posts:8
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| 12/13/2006 10:21 AM |
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Are there any historical texts that promote blade grabbing?
The ones I've seen don't... and Fabris only recommends using the off hand in times of dire need...unless I've read that wrong.
While a rapier isn't "razor" sharp. A grabbed blade could do some hand damage and enough to possibly open you a counter attack due to the natural flinching response... |
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