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Subject: Importing outside marshals to authorize new fighters at events
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HakimUser is Offline
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12/03/2006 2:00 PM Alert 
Ok, so I think I will stir up a hornets nest here, I would like opinions on this matter. Please state what level of marshal you are in your post.

Hakim
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warwickUser is Offline
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12/03/2006 2:37 PM Alert 
I don't understand the question .  But you can't authorise new fighters at events. 

Warwick Drakkar
(Senior Marshal, MOB Lionsgate)
Gemma~User is Offline
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12/03/2006 7:20 PM Alert 
Personally, I am not comfortable being responsible for someone unknown to me, and I would not authorize outside my area (ie: Avacal in general, Montengarde in specific). A good example would be Clinton - I've heard of many instances where fighters in TRigh have been auth'ed by someone in Avacal. IMNSHO, that should never happen.

Gemma~
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MatUser is Offline
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12/04/2006 6:12 AM Alert 

If a senior martial deems a fighter safe, regardless of where the martial and the potential fighters are from, I don't think it's really worth stressing over.  It's at the senior martial's descression as to whether or not they'll authorize somebody from a different area or not.

(not a martial, just my thoughts)


Git-r-dun!
RaoulUser is Offline
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12/04/2006 8:48 AM Alert 

Mat is correct in that a senior marshal can authorize anyone they like.  HE Gemma is correct in that senior marshals have a responsibility to make sure the fighters are safe and actually know the rules and it is difficult to do that with someone you just met.

How we look at authorizations depends on how we look at it.  I know that back when my part of the world was part of the Middle Kingdom authorizations required two senior marshals and at least one of those had to be from outside the branch where the fighter came from.  Authorizations pretty much had to happen at events.  The biggest concern for them was to remove the temptation to authorize someone prematurely because you know them.  An Tir has always trusted that the senior marshals will be responsible enough to not sign off on someone who's not ready just because they come from the same branch.  The biggest concern for us seems to be that people who generally don't play safe can behave for the duration of an authorization, but then return to unsafe behavour when they return home.

So what's your biggest concern?

Raoul
SRM, OWS


"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos
HobUser is Offline
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12/04/2006 9:37 AM Alert 
Having lived in a kingdom which required authorizations to be done by an outside marshal, I've seen both systems abused. With our system, people can authorize their friends at their home practice. In the other system, I saw unsafe fighters deliberately travel to the other end of the kingdom to get authorized by people who didn't know their history.

In either case, the real checks and balances lie in the basic marshal training and in event marshals keeping a close eye out for people fighting in an unsafe manner.
RebecaUser is Offline
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12/04/2006 10:13 PM Alert 
I think any problems would depend on your reasons for bringing in an outside marshal to do the authorizing.  If your choice involves some sort of bias (either against you by your local marshal, or for you by the outsider), well, that should really be taken up with the KRM.  If it's a social thing ("I don't want X's name on my card because X is a pirate.  I want Y's name, because Y ia a Ninja, and everyone knows Ninjas are cooler than pirates*."), I don't see that it would be a problem.  Silly, yes.  A problem, not really.  And if it's a political thing ("I heard from a friend of a friend's dog-walker that Marshal A said once to someone else at band camp that I hit too hard.  I do not!  Just for that, I'm getting Marshal B to authorize me!  That'll show him! That'll show them all!"), well, politics are dumb, but we can't seem to avoid them.  We'd all be better off without them, but until that day comes, I don't really have a solution to that one.

*Comments may or may not be the opinion of the poster.

Rebeca
-Newly minted Jr. Marshal

warwickUser is Offline
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12/04/2006 10:36 PM Alert 
Allowing the authorisation of fighters at events invites more chances of abuse then insisting the Sr. Marshal know and to have essentially trained the fighter up to a level in which they are comfortable putting their name on the new fighter's card.

If we allowed authorisation at events there would be a greater chance for unsafe fighters in the ranks because of the temptation to just "get them out there".

If, as a senior marshal, someone you don't know approaches you (outside of an event) for an authorisation and you agree to run them through the test, and you card them, then you are putting your rep at risk, and potentially your status as a Senior Marshal.  But that choise is of course yours.

W
HakimUser is Offline
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12/04/2006 10:38 PM Alert 
Raoul
As I stated in my opening post I am looking for opinions on this matter. Should it be a concern?
Just so you all know I am a junior of many years in both Rapier and Heavy.

Hakim
student to Don Enoch
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12/05/2006 8:32 AM Alert 

Sorry Hakim, my question, "What's your biggest concern?" was not meant to be directed at you.  My intent was to get everyone to think about the answer to that one.  I think that people's opinion on this question will be influenced by what concerns them most; that someone will be authorized by someone that doesn't know them when they shouldn't be or that someone will be authorized by someone who does know them when they shouldn't be.

In this kingdom, the general assumption seems to be that authorizing at your home group practice is better because the local marshal will know the fighters and therefore there is less risk of someone being authorized just to get them on the field.  In some other places, the general assumption is that authorizations should be done by an outside marshal because they are more likely to say 'no' to a fighter they don't know than is the local marshal who has to live and play in the same branch with those rejected fighters.  There is potential for abuse both ways so I think either point of view is as valid as the other.

Personally, I am not against bringing in a marshal, especially to areas that don't have one or don't have regular enough access to one.  I agree that authorizing at events is a bad idea; there just isn't enough time to do it.

Warwick, I think that your concern about reputation and status as a senior is somewhat exagerrated.  No one's reputation will suffer or their status be challenged because one of the people they authorized turns out to be a butt-head.  If a consistent pattern would develop then there may be a different story.

Raoul


"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos
RebecaUser is Offline
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12/05/2006 5:39 PM Alert 
I thought that authorizations were allowed at events, provided they were arranged ahead of time and the fighter was not allowed to fight at that event after being authorized?

I had assumed that the "outsider" marshal was known to the fighters being authorized, and vice versa, when I was considering this problem.  Are there marshals who would authorize a random stranger that approached them out of the blue one day?  Conversely, are there fighters that would ask them to do that?

Rebeca

ArffuidssonUser is Offline
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12/05/2006 6:51 PM Alert 
Greetings,

I have to agree with Raoul’s assessment of the two different ways. I been an authorized as a fencer under both (The West, my current kingdom, is my third one), and yes Hob’s statement is correct. Both systems can be abused.

As for authorizations at events, there should be arrangements made between the two groups, so both parties can still enjoy the event. I have never been a fan of surprise authorizations.

Rebeca, yes I would run an authorization for someone who I have never met. Whether they authorized or not would be up to them and any extenuating circumstances. I know that I have shown up to a couple practices that people (whom I do not know) have asked me for an authorization.

Staffan Arffuidsson
Senior Marshal
West Kingdom
warwickUser is Offline
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12/05/2006 8:34 PM Alert 
Personally, I feel if I have authorised someone and they turn out to be a butt-head, it's my bad.  But that's because I am wholly of the "you need to know and have trained the person to authorise them" camp.  I believe your rep is definately on the line.  And it should be on the line.  Perhaps your status is not, unless, as stated above, there is a repeated pattern of butt-heads.   If I have to stop a fighter for being a butthead, and the fighter is doing something particularly stupid, I will ask to see their authorisation card and I will take note of the authorising marshal's name, and include it in the report.  Call me a killjoy.  I believe we are responsible in part at least for those we authorise.  If there are marshals who are "abusing" the system and authorising their unsafe friends or some such drivel then revoke their warrent.

Respectfully,

Warwick
RaoulUser is Offline
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12/06/2006 8:30 AM Alert 

Only authorizing people you train doesn't work out here anyway.  For years I was the only senior marshal in the province.  There's no way I could train everyone out here.

I actually don't agree with that philosophy anywhere.  Personality conflict is a fact of life so there will be cases where a senior marshal in a branch doesn't get along with a particular fighter.  If that senior is the only one in the area it can be hard for the fighter to get training, let alone an authorization.  There has to be a way to work around situations like this.

Raoul


"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos
warwickUser is Offline
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12/06/2006 9:20 AM Alert 
I hear you Raoul - living in Lionsgate we have a large population and sometimes I forget that other areas do not enjoy the same.

As for personality conflicts - seems more like special case, and particularly, sounds like a bad marshal.  But I can see the need to bring in an outside marshal in this case.

However, I can assure you that no one here in Lionsgate is authorising their unsafe buddies.
MollyModineUser is Offline
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12/13/2006 12:15 PM Alert 
Okay so since Hakim has brought this issue up for everyone to see, let me tell the REST of the story then.

I have a small group of fighters ... 5 of them, who train with me twice a week ... who were IMO ready to be tested for authorization in rapier.

The fighters themselves for personal and political reasons did not want to be tested by the nearest senior marshal. Call it bias against me and my students and inner shire civil war.

But I also needed to get the fighters authorized at the Golden Swan event because the following weekend was Freeze Off and they wanted to go and fight in the Iron Rose.

So I asked two other 'fairly close' senior marshals if they were coming down to Golden Swan, they said no.

Then I found out that HL Eric of Clan Smith, senior marshal and cadet to Guido, was coming to Golden Swan ... the timing was perfect. And on behave of my students, I asked Eric if he would test the fighters. He said yes. This was all arranged before the event. All were tested and passed.

Since then I have had so much political BS about this, from certain people in Appledore, that I have quit the shire and resigned my championship and my students have left as well along with my entire household of 12 people.

I'm sure Hakim & Sevrin will have some defensive backlash or outburst from this post of mine, but at this point I don't care anymore. They have ruined the enjoyment of the game for a lot of local people.

And BTW I'm a junior marshal in rapier.

Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent
DravenUser is Offline
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12/13/2006 8:53 PM Alert 

I have no problem authorizing fighters that are not from my area.  I ask as to why their Sr. isn't doing their authorizations and what kind've circumstances are present.  I know where most Sr's are in this Principality of Tir Righ and have assisted in creating two Sr's so far. 

I offer a fair testing procedure that follows the rules in ensuring that the fighters are up to the bar set by the ABC's & RABC's.  I would expect that if the fighter is truly ready then they should be ready to be tested by any Sr. Marshal whether its the Principality Marshal - Don Guidobaldo or me.

There are times that I have been requested to do marshalate business such as authorizations in areas other than my own.  That is my right, and I take pleasure in advancing rapier in what way I can.


Draven Mac Raith

Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion
MollyModineUser is Offline
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12/14/2006 7:22 AM Alert 
Hakim

PLEASE stop emailing me in private.

I am NOT in your shire anymore, you are NOT my Master of Stables.
Your hostile emails are abusive and a form of harrassment.

PLEASE leave me alone.

Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent
HakimUser is Offline
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12/14/2006 2:58 PM Alert 
this is the e-mail Molly is refering to, seeing how she wants every one to know. If it is a hostile, abusive and a harrassing email, then ban me from this list.


"I was asking for opinions not your side of what happened here in appledore, I already know that. So please read my opening post and respond to it please. Opinions not sob stories. Nobody wants to see or hear dirty laundry on a public forum. That is not what they are for. If you want to tell the world then email them privately.

Hakim"


Hakim
student to Don Enoch
MollyModineUser is Offline
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12/14/2006 4:05 PM Alert 
Hakim

Remember that if I feel the received email is abusive, then it is.

Remember Robyn's words ...
You only offend or violate someone if they perceive it to be offensive or violating. It is a matter of opinion on the receiving end and thus cannot be shot down by others because they are not the person on the receiving end.

Calling my side of the situation a "sob story" is abusive and part of the problem.

So let's talk about my sob story a little more then...

You have also said that my students ... who are authorized rapier fightingers ... are BANNED from official Appledore practices and from rapier fighting at Appledore events. Your reasoning ... they aren't doing SCA rapier.

So Hakim ... you said that they are not doing SCA Rapier ... well what they are learning from me is what I am learning from Don Prospere and it is certainly able to be applied to SCA ... I'm sure Ramon, Alverro and anyone else on this list doing period study would love to know you don't consider that a valid form of rapier for the SCA.

And secondly these students of mine are authorized rapier fighters in An Tir, you have no right to ban them from official Appledore practices or fighting at Appledore events. Not that any of us would want to go to Appledore now.

And I have the email where you have said this Hakim. So don't try to deny it.

Now ... unless you want to keep digging your own grave, leave it and me alone. Stop going to the modern work places of my students. Because of you and Sevrin I have left the shire of Appledore, 12 members of my house have left the shire of Appledore and 1 of my house as actually quit the SCA ... I hope you both are proud of yourselves, most of these people were in their first year in the SCA.

Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent
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Forums > Swordplay & things > SCA - Rapier Marshaling > Importing outside marshals to authorize new fighters at events



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