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Enoch van Zuidenland
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| 08/16/2006 7:06 AM |
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Ruiadhri,
I can see your point but I don't agree that the TRP's can effectively deal with the situation only becasue there tends to be mutiplie Mr. Happy Gunshots at any given time on both sides of a melee. It is mainly the fact that carrying multiple RBG's is historically inaccurate that bothers me so I will continue doing what I can in my part of the world in an attempt to change attitudes.
Anyone else care to join me?
Enoch |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/17/2006 1:53 PM |
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Posted By Enoch van Zuidenland on 08-16-2006 7:06 AM
I can see your point but I don't agree that the TRP's can effectively deal with the situation only becasue there tends to be mutiplie Mr. Happy Gunshots at any given time on both sides of a melee. It is mainly the fact that carrying multiple RBG's is historically inaccurate that bothers me so I will continue doing what I can in my part of the world in an attempt to change attitudes.
Running around in a field with rapiers and pistols is historically inaccurate. If you wanted to re-create late period combat, you'd have muskets, pike, cavalry, cannon, and some initial organization. Even for skirmishes, you're not going to find groups of foot with rapiers and pistols fighting other groups of foot with rapiers and pistols.
I am all for authenticity, but this is a case of the pot calling the kettle... |
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/17/2006 6:57 PM |
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TdB said ...
"I am all for authenticity, but this is a case of the pot calling the kettle..."
Not true. I once again direct you to http://www3.telus.net/Quattrocento_Florence/republic/sscgmain.html to see what we are attempting to develop for the segment of the Rapier community who want to persue period warfare within the confines of the SCA.
Pike and cavalry cancel each other out, so what we are left with is musket, sword, (perhaps cannon), and organization.
At Clinton War it was a pleasure to be led by Estaban, Guido, Alvarro, and Enoch as they experimented with strategies and maneuvers during the various scenarios. To me it was the infancy of what Saint Sebastien's is attempting to do. |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/18/2006 11:16 AM |
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Bullpucky. I went to the site the first time you posted it. Those aren't valid rapier scenarios. They're pike, musket, cavalry, and artillery scenarios. They also require FAR more people and marshals than you're going to find at an SCA battle to be even remotely viable.
And how the hell do you justify saying "pike and cavalry cancel each other out"? That is absolute bollocks.
Show me examples of large field battles (hell, show me skirmishes) fought between two groups comprised exclusively of rapier-wielding infantry. No? Of course not - it didn't happen. The rapier isn't a military weapon. Pike. Musket. Cavalry. Artillery.
You can't take a battle that involved 2000 people on each side, comprised of pike, cavalry, musket, and artillery and shrink it down to 20 (or fewer) people on each side holding rapiers and rubber band pistols, and then call it authentic.
I appreciate the thought and effort that went into crafting the two scenarios you've got posted, but they're not rapier scenarios. The way to re-create your scenarios is to use lots of heavies with pikes and muskets, not rapier fighters with pistols.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 08/18/2006 4:30 PM |
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I gotta agree with Thore (Nice to see you)
a more accurate scenario ... if were going for accuracy is the Rich nobleman getting attacked out of the ally by a number of knife toting theives , said rich nobleman "might" get off one shot from an RBG and if he was a smart rich nobleman he wouldnt bother he would retreat behind his line of guards that were armed with a brace of pistols (Remember "Rich") each and hope that all of the theives die prior to his having to do anything  Yes silly but way more accurate than a "War" of Rapiers and pistols LOL
To answer the initial post,
RBG -- LOve them think they are fun even when I dont have them
Limit the number -- Why bother if you want to try and carry all that hardware well I can close the distance between lines really fast, and then if you havent shot me or my buddies and your not carrying bare steel you will be a dead gun toter
Do we need a rule --- Nah we need rules for Safety folks if we make rules for things like this we will be going down that slippery slope to making skill a pre requisite for being able to play and wipe out half the community of fighters, leave this stuff to the individual TRPs
"2 Coppers"
Utgar |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/18/2006 6:51 PM |
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Bullpucky yourself, Thore.
Quote: And how the hell do you justify saying "pike and cavalry cancel each other out"?
What were pike used for in late period warfare? Principally as a counter-measure against cavalry assaults. No cavalry in late period SCA warfare - no pikes required. That's how the hell I justify it.
Quote: They also require FAR more people and marshals than you're going to find at an SCA battle to be even remotely viable.
Not true. We used the Battle Lines scenario at Scholars of St. Thomas Aquinas and it worked fine with less than ten fighters.
Quote: The rapier isn't a military weapon.
Okay, I have to say it; Duh! This isn't my first time at the rodeo. The point is that the rapier is what we fight with. Rubber band pistols? I agree, get them off the warfield and replace them with long guns that are a heck of a lot harder to load just like the real ones were and were actually used in military engagments.
Your aversion to RBGs is well known, but there are those of us in the rapier community who feel the same way about "dueling". My persona is a Florentine. If you had challenged me to a duel and set a time and place, a few Florins would have changed hands and you would have been maimed by a gang of thugs on your way to the "duel" ... che brutta figura. So, to me (in persona), dueling is a ridiculous notion only engaged in by fools and hotheads. But you don't see me on rapier lists dissing those who like doing it.
Quote: ... not rapier fighters with pistols.
Again; I'm not talking about pistols - Pistols are not mentioned on the Saint Sebastien Civic Guard pages, only muskets, calivers, and arquebus. Pistols were a cavalry and sapper's weapon. Until we're allowed to use horses and undermine defenses in the SCA, they shouldn't be on any warfield that is attempting to approximate late period warfare.
And don't worry, I won't ever ask you to engage in any war scenario, knowing your feelings toward them. I'd just appreciate it if you wouldn't campaign against an idea simply because it doesn't fit within your narrow definition as to what rapier combat should be.
And Thore, I too have a low tolerance for idiots. |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 08/18/2006 9:05 PM |
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Sevrin wrote:
(much snippage)
I'd just appreciate it if you wouldn't campaign against an idea simply because it doesn't fit within your narrow definition as to what rapier combat should be.
(snippage)
Last I checked, this is a free country, and anyone can campaign for *most any* idea. No matter how ridiculous, or objectionable *you* think it is.
I'm highly disappointed and appalled that you would recommend the restriction of a person to speak their opinion, or campaign for a cause.
Secondly, rapier combat was "invented" to recreate dueling/personal combat. I oughta know I've talked to a majority of the rapier pioneers in the Kingdoms at the time rapier first sprang up (Roughly 1975 through 1977.). I was on the scene in 1978 and saw the first Ansteorran written rules in (IIRC) October of 1979.
This is from a copy of a supplement (Supplement A) to the Marshallate Rules of Ansteorra (Not dated but of circa 1980 - 1982 or so) and I quote:
'V. Period Fencing
This section covers the standards for a recognized form of medieval combat that falls outside the normal forms covered by the Rules of the List.
A. The Primary purpose of Period Fencing within Ansteorra is to allow individuals to display their marshal (sic) skills and talents as honorable duelists with rapier and associated weapon/defense forms. Period Fencing shall be conducted, as far as is consistent with safety, to simulate actual weapon play of this sort prior to the year 1600.'
I think that fairly succintly defines the mindset of the early SCA rapier practitioners.
Dormouse
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/18/2006 11:30 PM |
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Posted By Dormouse on 08-18-2006 9:05 PM
Sevrin wrote:
(much snippage)
I'd just appreciate it if you wouldn't campaign against an idea simply because it doesn't fit within your narrow definition as to what rapier combat should be.
(snippage)
Last I checked, this is a free country, and anyone can campaign for *most any* idea. No matter how ridiculous, or objectionable *you* think it is.
I'm highly disappointed and appalled that you would recommend the restriction of a person to speak their opinion, or campaign for a cause.
Dormouse
In the line of mine above that you quoted, I said nothing about recommending the restriction of anyone to speak their opinion nor campaign for a cause ... I stated that I would appreciate if Thore didn't campaign against those of us who are trying to create a milieu that fosters the study and application of late period warfare.
It isn't for everyone. I get that.
What we're trying to do isn't going to equal the massive armed conflicts of the Renaissance. But it will allow those of us who practice and drill as a unit to apply what we do in melee combat.
As for the conception of Rapier combat in the SCA, I concede your point. But does that serve to exclude those of us who wish something different? |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/19/2006 12:08 AM |
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Posted By Sevrin on 08-18-2006 11:30 PM
As for the conception of Rapier combat in the SCA, I concede your point. But does that serve to exclude those of us who wish something different?
Devil's advocate - but if you want to do something different - than why don't you?
Let's say that we are playing golf, and you decide that you want to do "something different", do you think I might have reason to be a tad annoyed if you were to tackle me onto the green, and take the ball?
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Mat
Provost
Posts:123
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| 08/19/2006 1:49 AM |
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There's a lot of ideas here, I can tell...while trying to read what's written, instead of flaming about what's not or that is and this is that or what's what or who said this and it was that or it was as is, I think it'd be a good idea to discuss exactly what period warfare is or was, and how we can apply it to what we do!  |
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Git-r-dun! |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/19/2006 7:39 AM |
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Posted By jgreywolf on 08-19-2006 12:08 AM
Devil's advocate - but if you want to do something different - than why don't you?
Let's say that we are playing golf, and you decide that you want to do "something different", do you think I might have reason to be a tad annoyed if you were to tackle me onto the green, and take the ball?
Heheheh ... Sounds like a scene from an Adam Sandler movie. But your analogy would be applicable if I proposed to replace Tournaments with melees. I'm not. Nor am I arguing against those who duel ...
War scenarios and group melees already exist in our community, and enough people join in them to indicate that they are an attraction. What myself and others are promoting is to change the way we approach these scenarios. It isn't an either/or argument. Heavy fighters have Tournaments and Wars - Why can't we follow suit?
This thread was begun as a response to the events at Clinton War that highlighted an "arms race" in Rapier war scenarios. Though I am a proponent of musket, caliver, and arquebus simulators, what I saw during the scenarios almost sold me on the argument against RBGs entirely. Too many fighters were relying on the four to six pistols jammed into their belts, instead of developing skills with their blades. Too many fighters think they can win employing "tricks" instead of practiced skill. And as one fighter on the "pirate/rogue" side stated, their strategy was to "hide behind the guns".
What we are proposing is to refine the melee piece that already exists in the Rapier community in a similar way that the individual combat piece has been refined; The study and practice of period schools in the Art of Defence has raised the level of excellence in our community. So why not do the same for group combat? I fully agree with Thore and others who point out that two "armies" running around a field with pistols and rapiers never happened and thus doesn't "recreate" anything. So what to do in order to support the mission of the SCA to research and recreate? |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/19/2006 10:06 AM |
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Nice ad hominem, Sevrin. Now, try for some reading comprehension.
My initial point was that you can't use the "authenticity excuse" to justify limiting the number of RBG's per person in the rules, because having 20 people running around with a rapier and 2 RBGs is no more authentic than having 20 people running around with a rapier and 6 RBGs.
But since you've gone there, I'm happy to follow. You can't re-create late period military combat using SCA rapier rules and equipment. End of story.
Your justification for the omission of cavalry and pike is ludicrous. "Cavalry magically disappeared and since the only use for pike is standing off cavalry, pike isn't needed either." 1. Cavalry didn't disappear at all; it was still vital during the 30 Years War. The advent of massive armies reduced the percentage of cavalry compared to disposable foot, but not the value. 2. Pikes are not exclusively for standing off cavalry. Your own description of the battle you're trying to mimic in the ambushed march scenario includes cavalry. Ah, wait, I see it... what you actually wrote was "no cavalry in late period SCA warfare so no need for pikes." So in reality, what you're saying is that you are completely incapable of re-creating actual late period warfare using SCA rapier rules. Hey, we actually agree on something!
Let me break it down:
Late period warfare: Cavalry, Pike, Musket, Artillery, thousands of people per side, meaning terrain and tactics are vital.
SCA Rapier melees: Rapiers, RBGs, 1 person representing several hundred, meaning that terrain and tactics are meaningless, as flanking and singling out enemy "commanders" is trivial. No cavalry units, no need for couriers between units, no artillery, no pike, no supply trains. What you're left with is at most a couple dozen people running around a field with rapiers and RBGs.
One of these things is not like the other.
I don't care if people want to pick sides, run around a field, and have a rapier melee. I don't even care if they want to embarrass themselves by calling it a rapier war. What I do care about is people like you trying to misrepresent that as authentic late period military combat. If you honestly wish to try to re-create late period military battles, you will have to do so outside the realm of SCA Rapier. Whether that's through the creation of another combat discipline within the SCA, or done outside the SCA is up to you. I would support a form of combat that combined pike and musket, using heavier than rapier armor and requiring mesh inside helmets, with specialized rules for artillery and a fudge for cavalry (make every except the cavalry walk. Only "cavalry" can run). Just don't try to justify two groups of people running around with rapiers and RBGs as authentic late period combat.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/19/2006 10:35 AM |
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Posted By Mat on 08-19-2006 1:49 AM ... I think it'd be a good idea to discuss exactly what period warfare is or was, and how we can apply it to what we do!
exactly, and Thoré has stated that you really can't do "Warfare" with rapiers and rbgs.
Instead of trying to make orange juice from apples, why not look to documented history that would allow you to make apple juice from your apples. If not documented history, at least something that logically would have taken place in the Rapier time period of history.
For example, several years ago at An Tir West war, one of the scenarios required you to break a team mate out of prison. There was a hallway and cell marked out with surveyors tape on the ground, the guards each had a rapier and a rbg with a single shot. There was a corner in the hall, so realistically, once you shot there was no time for reloading anyway. No need to ignore the use of cavalry or artillery as this was set inside a building.
Do stuff like that, or capture a spy as he boards his boat to sail from France to England (or the other way).
But if you insist on doing warfare, suck it up and do it with proper gear. And guess what, maybe you will have to go outside the SCA to do it.
And Cavalry never went away period. It just evolved, today it is done with tanks and armoured personnel carriers.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/19/2006 2:59 PM |
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Reading through the last three posts made me think of something. Do you think that it would improve the level of potential "authenticity" for Rapier melee's to look more at "skirmishes", then actual battles or wars?
By skirmishes I mean encounters (that conceptually could be part of a larger battle) with a max of ~50-60 people total, that could be defined in such a way that RBGs and Rapier could be seen as viable weapon combinations. Did that make sense? |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/19/2006 5:32 PM |
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Posted By jgreywolf on 08-19-2006 2:59 PM
Do you think that it would improve the level of potential "authenticity" for Rapier melee's to look more at "skirmishes", then actual battles or wars?
By skirmishes I mean encounters (that conceptually could be part of a larger battle) with a max of ~50-60 people total, that could be defined in such a way that RBGs and Rapier could be seen as viable weapon combinations. Did that make sense?
Yes it did make sense. And that works for me. |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 08/19/2006 8:14 PM |
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So...are we all in some form of agreement..we recreate "skirmishes" on the warfield? (at least until we can get pikes, more cannon etc?)
That being said, let us move past the semantics and look at the myriad of ways we might improve melee combat to satisfy most combatants.
I use the TRPs to level the playing field, devise scenarios (a squad of guardsmen have to deliver a missive and are set upon by outlaws etc...), and before finalizing anything, I run my ideas past my dueling and melee friends.
In essence, I ask them, "Do you think this would be fun?" followed by, "What could I do to make this either more realistic, or more appealing?"
In the end, most times the scenarios end up realistic, but with that element of fun and adventure that many of us joined the SCA for.
...if it isn't fun, you might as well quit, because you're probably wrecking it for everyone else... and remember, you can't be King, you can't be a knight, and our fighting and dress exceeds all but the most serious armoured fighter... we've come a long way baby, and who knows when the pikes will arrive?
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God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
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Castra
Scholar
Posts:18
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| 08/24/2006 9:45 AM |
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hello gentles...
i was gonna be quite but really as the frekin capt of the pirates side at clinton... there was only one senario we planned to hide behind the guns.. that was one of the first with the cannon.. the cannon that wasn't loaded and didn't work by the way.. but the other side didn't know that.. other than that none of our strategys were .. hide behind the guns. use them..yes. but not hide behind them. i'm sorry if some of our strategy wern't compleatly period or pulled together but as we had at most a couple min , which is the normal case at these things, to pull our motley lot together, we kinda flew by the seat of our pants.
the other thing could someone tell me who bag o gun dude was cause my crew had two gun bags tween us and we shared everything so that most could have one gun. i lent my gun out for all senarios except the last castle cause we didnt have enought to go around and as i was yelling at ppl from the back i didn't really need it.
ok end rant and my apoligies... basically im in agreement with more cardful trps. limit ammo, limit the type o guns allowed in certain senarios. for fields have just cannons and muskets and carbines. for skirmishs or ship board battles allow the pistols. work with the flavour of the senario .. in the end we'll make it more fun and hopefully take the bikering down to a dull roar.
lady o chaos
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to the pain... |
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Mat
Provost
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| 08/25/2006 1:37 AM |
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I remember a guy a couple of clinton's back (or was it quad war, can't recall) who had a bag of guns. I can't recall his name, but it was quite comical. |
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Git-r-dun! |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/25/2006 6:51 AM |
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| Edited to fix the Subject line. It was bugging me |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:125
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| 09/14/2006 5:37 PM |
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Hah - Kieran u dog - I rename thee Don Hyperbole - 6 rbgs indeed. I was mr guncloset. I had three (3) guns on my person (not 6! - unless there was some other merc out there with 6 that I missed). I lent the rest out. I also gave ammo to the other side for every gun scenario. I also built the cannon. I also ensured I had shieldmen to protect me while I reloaded my long guns. I also had to point my gun at my own troops to keep them in line as Tremayne and Draven were able to push them back with dirty looks. But that's a different whine.
Guess that must mean I suck with a blade hey? Come find out. I suggest you bring your best game... (beats chest, slaps ground with large branch)
RBGs are fun. TRPs need to be clear on their usage. After last Clinton it became clear to me that even tho mismatches are usual and acceptable in war scenarios, that is only true when it comes to blades, not rbgs. This makes perfect sense to me.
When my crew first came to Clinton many years ago (with no rbgs) we were apparently a frightful lot and the other side passed guns down the line and shot us all dead before we crossed blades with a single person. It was sad and pathetic in a Woody Allen kind of way and I'll always remember it as I was the last of our crew left upright and I remember desperately trying to reach their line before I too was shot. I never made it. Thanks for the lesson.
The next year we all showed up with rbgs and bucklers.
Later we brought up a cannon (it was far more effective as a psychological experiement than anything else)
All in all - the arguement that those who use rbgs must must be compensating for something, while amusing, is cack. My crew are all ass kickers with or without rbgs (or were - too many babies popping out - out numbers are halved  ). Get rid of rbgs - we don't care. Chances are faced with 6'4 Roland, backed up by 6'3 Taeryn, and flanked by the rest of our frankly very tall, very robust and highly skilled crew - you'll be wishing you had an RBG or 3. Excuse me while I digress into infantile cackling - sorry.
Let me get back on topic - rbg's are fun for some and not for others. But if it's a warpoint scenario, people who dislike rbgs dont really have the option of sitting it out. One option is to not use rbgs in warpoint scenarios. Then the traditional numbers mismatch that occurs can carry the day (ok ok that was snipy). This is the traditional 3 scenarios Clinton battle (line, castle, champion). The other option is to accept rbgs, but ensure the trps are clear on their use and how to limit them. Augustine set up very well thought out scenarios where rbgs were used for 3 of 10 scenarios - one of those 3 had equal guns/shots on each side. So there were 2 out of 10 scenarios where there was an rbg mismatch. Yet that was enough to inspire 2 pages of this thread and also got people back on the old war vs. street fight argument. (no one on either side seemed to mind that practically all the scarved fighters were on one side...)
I will likely have to MIC Clinton next year (unless I can rope Gwyd into it). Even before I started following this thread I was thinking of ways to avoid the issues that lent this year's event a sour note. One idea I had was to limit both sides to the same total ammo for the entire war, to be used wherever the captains decided. So for example, if we have 30 fighters a side, that would be, say, 60 shots total per side, for the entire event. Then set up a variety of scenarios, and let each side decide how to use their rbgs.
Perhaps I'll start another thread and we can all discuss what would make people happy (or equally unhappy) next year.
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