| Author |
Messages |
|
jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
 |
| 02/27/2006 12:40 PM |
 Alert
|
New forum - lets start off with some discussion.
I am actually a little suprised at how many people would be OK with an instructor who has only 3-5 years of experience. But fair enough.
Question - would you also pay someone to teach you kung fu who has only been studying the art for the same length of time? Just curious...
|
|
Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
|
|
Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
|
| 02/27/2006 7:44 PM |
Alert
|
I agree Justin...
I was shocked, and appalled that people would be willing to settle for that. I thought that I was running way too liberal by saying 5 to 10...
In answer to your question absolutely not.
Craig |
|
I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
|
|
Rebeca
Scholar
Posts:21
|
| 02/27/2006 8:32 PM |
Alert
|
My first instinct on seeing the question was to respond "the more
experience, the better." However, it all depends on what's being
taught, and by who.
Someone who's been practicing for a year probably knows enough to teach
a complete beginner how to hold a sword and how to walk, but I wouldn't
want them to be teaching me. Likewise, there are probably enough
5 year people who know enough to teach me a lot of things, but not everything,
if that makes sense. (for reference, I've been learning off and
on for about 4 years now, and there's no way that I'm even close to
being able to teach.)
But for regular lessons, with classes including several people, I want
a teacher who knows what they're doing to the point where they don't
even have to think about it anymore, and I don' think that's possible
in much less than 10 years.
Of course, in the end I'll learn from anyone who's willing to teach, as
long as they know more than I do. (There are few things more
annoying than someone who has been to three practices saying "you're
doing that wrong. Do it this way." When I'm working on
something)
Rebeca
|
|
|
|
|
Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
|
| 02/27/2006 9:32 PM |
Alert
|
Well, what can I say...I'd agree to a point that it's liberal to say 5-10 years experience to be a teacher, as it's experience, practical application, combined with knowledge that I look for in a teacher.
That said, I'd look to a more inexperienced teacher who knows his/her stuff, regardless of their time spent in the arte. I've had Masters in various Martial arts teach me, and sometimes leave me exceptionally confused, and I've also had a very capable 14 year old who's only been learning period rapier for about 2 years discuss CF plates with me and shed light on some of my confusion.
I essence I would want an instructor with years and years of experience, but I will accept the gems of wisdom from anyone who brings enlightenment into my studies.
just an addition here: I'm not a huge fan of terminology (but am getting into the habit...Alvarro!), and prefer to have things put into practical terms (ie: English)... I find that the language sometimes gets into the way of actually learning (as in judo...why "O-Goshi"? why not call it a hip throw? I recall failing my first testing for Shodan because of terminology, not practical application)
I never introduce any terminology until I'm sure my student understands the tool and application... then I lay it out if he/she so desires to learn it.
Gwydion
opening up a can of worms for the masses |
|
God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
|
|
|
Marten
Scholar
Posts:15
|
| 02/28/2006 1:33 PM |
Alert
|
In kendo you have to be a yondan in order to be a sensei . The minimum time experience for making this rank is about 8 years, assuming you pass every examination. Teaching certificates are not awarded, e.g., kyoshi, renshi, and hanshi until after rokudan which will take another 9 years, so total time to get a teaching certificate in kendo, assuming everything goes well, is 17 years.
For the most part the WMA may have a rating system (see USFA, E through A) but no rank. I would be in favor of both, a rating system to seed for competition and a ranking system to validate teaching experience. My question, however, is Qui custodiet ipsos custodes? |
|
Marten Claeszen van Rosenveldt
Cadet to Maître Guillaume dela Rapiére |
|
|
jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
|
| 02/28/2006 2:03 PM |
Alert
|
I would actually say that the WMA community does NOT have a rating system. One: modern fencing is not part of the WMA community, and Two: it is all very subjective right now. Based more on reputation and PERCIEVED level of skill/knowledge.
Something that I would like to see change. But yes, phrasing it a different way - who certifies the certified.... |
|
Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
|
|
Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
|
| 02/28/2006 6:39 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Rebeca on 02-27-2006 8:32 PM
Someone who's been practicing for a year probably knows enough to teach a complete beginner how to hold a sword and how to walk, but I wouldn't want them to be teaching me. Likewise, there are probably enough 5 year people who know enough to teach me a lot of things, but not everything, if that makes sense. (for reference, I've been learning off and on for about 4 years now, and there's no way that I'm even close to being able to teach.)
But for regular lessons, with classes including several people, I want a teacher who knows what they're doing to the point where they don't even have to think about it anymore, and I don' think that's possible in much less than 10 years.
Of course, in the end I'll learn from anyone who's willing to teach, as long as they know more than I do. (There are few things more annoying than someone who has been to three practices saying "you're doing that wrong. Do it this way." When I'm working on something)
Rebeca
First of all someone who has been fighting for a year does not know enough to teach a beginner how to hold a sword and walk... They are still trying to master that skill themselves. (I wouldn't really even consider training someone to teach until they'd been fightin', and fightin' well, for at least 5 years.)
These are two of the most important skills to learn, and should be learned from someone who has lots of experience, and more to the point, knows how to teach.
I've had to go through the painful process of retrainin' the bad habits formed when a student has started way too many times.
I started teachin' way too early in my career, and I most likely did a grave disservice to some folks...
Craig |
|
I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
|
|
Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
|
| 02/28/2006 8:45 PM |
Alert
|
I'm of two minds about this.
One, SCA, the other WMA.
Teaching in the SCA is usually of the "show and tell" method. Someone will show a technique to someone else, or offer some advice based on what they have been taught or learned. The interaction is short and the intention is to transmit a useable "winable" item.
For that kind of teaching...a lot of experience really isn't needed.
The other method of teaching, which isn't yet popular in WMA schools but is a mainstay in other physical arts, is that of process management. Here the teacher is focussed less on the technique, or even content of the lesson, and more on the students development as a fighter, primarily through volume and quality of practice, with frequent feedback. The teacher lets the student learn his or her own techniques based on personal makeup.
This kind of teaching takes not only many years of experience, but also a fair bit of specific training for the teacher.
So, two answers.
Technique based training: 3-5 years.
Practice/performance based training: 7-10 years.
|
|
Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
|
|
luaithrenn
Free Scholar
Posts:55
|
| 03/01/2006 10:54 AM |
Alert
|
My own answer to the survery is "5-10 years," but I'd prefer closer to the ten year range before accepting actual TEACHING from someone. The problem I see is, at least in the SCA context, is that there aren't that many folks in our group who stick with it for ten years or more and continue fighting. I can think of three off-hand...and admittedly I don't know how long "everyone" has been around and has been actively fighting...
Another question: would you accept teaching from someone who is "book smart" as far as this form of fighting goes but doesn't actually "fight?" I'm not sure I'd do that, either...although I'm sure there are lots of folks out there who are perfectly capable of doing research and then going on to write about period technique, or discuss it in a forum, but who don't have the physical skill to compete.
~~luaithrenn |
|
Luaithrenn the Falconer's Wife
|
|
|
Rebeca
Scholar
Posts:21
|
| 03/01/2006 1:23 PM |
Alert
|
Perhaps I should explain my reasoning better: I forgot to state that
implicit in my my comments is that I would find this
acceptable only in the occasion of not having anyone better suited
to teaching in the area. This isn't very common down south, but
some of us aren't so lucky.
There are those of us who are stuck
in places where it isn't uncommon for only 1 or 2 people to show up to
a practice, neither of whom is very experienced. When a new
person turns up to one of these practices, those present usually
explain what they can, which is generally along the lines of "This is a
sword. hold it like this, and stand like this." They might
not be explaining it perfectly, but it's still better than putting a
new person off for weeks until they lose interest, simply because there
isn't a don for 500km in any direction and the one person who might be
qualified to better explain things can rarely be bothered to show up.
Rebeca
(and please don't read this as sounding defensive or snarky, even if it
can be read that way. My education seems to have sucked up all my
ability to sound anything but, lately )
|
|
|
|
|
SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
|
| 03/01/2006 4:13 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Rebeca on 03-01-2006 1:23 PM
...
simply because there isn't a don for 500km in any direction and the one person who might be qualified to better explain things can rarely be bothered to show up.
...
Don't take this the wrong way, but don's or "better qualified people" have absolutely zero responsibility to come to you.
There is a great learning event coming up this weekend...4W.
Is it a long way for a lot of people? Why, yes it is.
Could it turn into an expensive weekend? Why, yes it could.
Does that disqualify a bunch of people from attending? Why, yes it does.
Well Tough S**T. Start saving now for next year.
How about ditching an event where you drive for 10 hours just to drink beer with the people you rode with and going to something useful? Wastekeep's Ithra has some good instructors signed up.
Rebeca, this rant isn't meant for you personally, I am just getting tired of people complaining that nobody comes to them.
Paul |
|
Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
|
|
Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
|
| 03/01/2006 8:13 PM |
Alert
|
Bert,
Eat mah shorts... Back to the topic...
Which is why the inexperienced should not be teachin'. There a whole other set of skills in teachin'. And without instruction on how to teach things like you mention happen.
Glad you mentioned the student. Most often I see students that want the quick gimmick botta secretta and don't want to do the necessary work to become proficient.
I got news folks, learnin' to use a sword is a time consumin', frustratin' process. There are no short cuts.
When I was first startin' I spent about 8 hours a week workin' on my skills. (Which probably explains why I completed my four year degree in five years... Actually, that's only part of the reason...)
I went a little over board, but someone learning a new skill needs to spend serious woodshed time. Practice once a week ain't gonna cut it.
In short: Fencing yes, or fencing no, no fencing maybe. My apologies to Pat Morita.
Craig |
|
I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
|
|
Melusine
Scholar
Posts:26
|
| 03/01/2006 8:33 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Albert_Faulke on 02-28-2006 1:20 PM
While I would love to always have an instructor with a deep knowledge of the subject, I think it's more important to have an instructor who can effectively pass along their knowledge. I can't tell you the number of times, professionally and recreationally, I've felt frustration because the instructor couldn't make a presentation to save their life. If a teacher can't connect with the students, nothing happens.
The instructors I avoid like the plague, regardless of experience, are the ones who can't give you an expalanation for why they do something a certain way.
Exactly! There are people who have all the experience in the world, and a very good at what they do, who cannot teach. There are also those who, for whatever reason, may not be a skilled at performing a certain discipline, but who can explain and teach it to others. Just being able to do something does not mean you can teach that same thing! This is something that has bothered me quite a lot outside of rapier, btw.
Now, in an ideal world, all who instruct would not only be gifted teachers, but have deep and thorough knowlege of their subjects as well.
Melusine
|
|
|
|
|
SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
|
| 03/01/2006 8:47 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Dormouse on 03-01-2006 8:13 PM
...
When I was first startin' I spent about 8 hours a week workin' on my skills. (Which probably explains why I completed my four year degree in five years... Actually, that's only part of the reason...)
...
Craig
Shiner Bock is a major part...I should see if I can scare up some for this weekend.
Paul
|
|
Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
|
|
Jon Barber
Scholar
Posts:25
|
| 03/03/2006 2:42 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Albert_Faulke on 02-28-2006 1:20 PM
While I would love to always have an instructor with a deep knowledge of the subject, I think it's more important to have an instructor who can effectively pass along their knowledge. I can't tell you the number of times, professionally and recreationally, I've felt frustration because the instructor couldn't make a presentation to save their life. If a teacher can't connect with the students, nothing happens.
The instructors I avoid like the plague, regardless of experience, are the ones who can't give you an expalanation for why they do something a certain way.
I always wander into these late....
Teaching a martial art is a skill that you need to develop. It doesn't come just from experience or ability in the art - it comes from putting in the effort to become a good teacher. I've been doing martial arts for...um...more than 20 years and fencing for almost 15. I've become a good teacher in the last 5 - before that I was a poor teacher, no doubt about it. But I had to work at it. I paid attention to how the good instructors I saw structured their classes, talked to them about what they do, read books on martial arts instruction, took education classes and have attended several WMA 'train the trainer' seminars. Experience and a thorough understanding of the material are essential but they aren't enough w/o the training in how to teach.
John Patrick
soon-to-be M.Ed - next is that degree in kinesiology *g* |
|
|
|
|
Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
|
| 03/05/2006 9:14 PM |
Alert
|
DIV>
First of all someone who has been fighting for a year does not know enough to teach a beginner how to hold a sword and walk... They are still trying to master that skill themselves. (I wouldn't really even consider training someone to teach until they'd been fightin', and fightin' well, for at least 5 years.)
These are two of the most important skills to learn, and should be learned from someone who has lots of experience, and more to the point, knows how to teach.
I've had to go through the painful process of retrainin' the bad habits formed when a student has started way too many times.
I started teachin' way too early in my career, and I most likely did a grave disservice to some folks...
Craig
I can see your point, but...
Sometimes at Aquaterra practice, I'm the most experienced fighter there (I just passed my 3 year mark), and I have two choices: teach the new fighters, or let them stab each other with all their bad, dangerous habits uncorrected. It's much better (and safer) for me to instruct them, even if I can't teach them the absolute best way to do something. Of course, we have the benifit of Indigo most weeks, so I'm not teaching completely unmonitered.
Would I try to teach Capo Ferro? No. Can I teach new people how not to stab themselves with their own dagger, or fall sword-first onto their opponant? Yes. |
|
|
|
|
Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
|
| 03/06/2006 9:24 AM |
Alert
|
Fall sword first onto your opponent? I'm more concerned when new people fall face first onto their opponent. Mostly falling face first onto their sword. That's baaaaaaad.
When I'm the most experienced one there, which is rare as my Don, Raoul, is there pretty much every practice, we make do with what I know how to teach. Parrying, point control, and a solid guard with as much fun as we can have. I won't try and break out a period manual or anything, because frankly there's very little desire for that kind of thing in our neck of the woods. But it's still fun and people can still focus on some of the basics. It's certainly more effective than not having practice because someone more experienced isn't available. I wouldn't call myself an 'instructor', just someone who can lead a practice if Raoul isn't able to make it.
Note that this is from an entirely SCA perspective and I've been playing for about three years as well. |
|
Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
|
|
Castra
Scholar
Posts:18
|
| 03/12/2006 8:57 PM |
Alert
|
I can see your point, but... Sometimes at Aquaterra practice, I'm the most experienced fighter there (I just passed my 3 year mark), and I have two choices: teach the new fighters, or let them stab each other with all their bad, dangerous habits uncorrected. It's much better (and safer) for me to instruct them, even if I can't teach them the absolute best way to do something. Of course, we have the benifit of Indigo most weeks, so I'm not teaching completely unmonitered. Would I try to teach Capo Ferro? No. Can I teach new people how not to stab themselves with their own dagger, or fall sword-first onto their opponant? Yes.
being in a similar situation, i have 5 going on 6 years sca experience. and am the most experienced in my area, i put together and run practices, have the responsibility of the newbies and all i can really say is you make do with what you got.
i make sure i teach only what i absoulutly know inside and out. then when im at other events or in the presence of someone whos been around longer or i think has something to teach i soak up whatever i can and learn it to the best of my ability before i event think of passing it on.
but as i am leaving at the end of this month , things will change the ppl taking over when i wander off have 1yrs 4 yrs and 4 months experience respectivly. should they not try to teach each other and others whatever they can. should they fight only when they can get out to where there are others of more years?? how many areas have or have had this problem im pretty sure a lot.
i guess i just have to say that i don't care how many years experience you have , i have fought ppl with less than 2 years on their belt who have run me through my paces way harder than some plus 10 yrs ppl. if you know and study and practice you stuff sometimes years just aint the defining factor.
my two cents ..
|
|
to the pain... |
|
|
Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
|
| 03/15/2006 11:36 AM |
Alert
|
This is a great topic, I like Morleigh have just under 3 years of actual experience in this arte. I am at this point the "Dean of Fence" for AquaTerra, and while it is or was originally a post for the main teacher in the group it has become more administrative since Ill be the first one to say that I am not the most qualified to teach  We in AquaTerra I don't believe realize how good we actually have it ... we have a resident Don (Indigo) that teaches at every practice he makes it too.... which is virtually all of them.
With that said:
If we have a new person and its a decision on if we should just allow them to flounder or to be taught by anyone we will usually get someone from the group that has most experience or shows the most aptitude (ability) in a certain fundamental like footwork or stances or basic movement and have them work with the person..... we also tend to make new people do a lot of point control (stab the wall till your arm falls off then switch arms) type drills or footwork type drills with feedback until we get our Don back the next practice This is far in advance of them ever sparring.
Funny thing is I'm a perfect example of someone that learned most of my Arte originally from people that should not have been teaching... I was a natural and was able to use speed and aggressiveness to do very well however I was very sloppy and would never really have gotten much better in the way of skill if I hadn't taken a step back and realized that I needed a teacher that was skilled to help me learn. It has taken the better part of a year for Indigo to really get most of my bad habits removed. And I'm now at the point that I am planning on going back to the basics for a number of months just to drill them into my body so that my brain doesn't need to get in the way. Footwork is a big one that I think no one practices enough ... I plan to do a minimum of 30 to 45 minutes of drills 3 days a week for a number of months then we worry about other items.
But I ramble,
I guess what I'm saying is Teachers need to have a good amount of experience and be well versed in how to best share that information before they should teach, regardless of years on the field or not.
However it's the responsibility of the student to be intelligent in the way they learn and to self assess and be truthful with themselves in what they need and how best to get it. We all as new people get wrapped up in the excitement of winning but its only those that step beyond that wall and seek the skill for skills sake that will ever become really great.
Hope that made sense
Utgar
|
|
|
|
|
jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
|
| 03/16/2006 11:55 AM |
Alert
|
Utgar - I would like to make one correction to your previous post. I have been meaning to address this topic for a bit now (with the kingdom at large), but kept putting it off.
There is no longer any position within any branch of An Tir that should be referred to as the "Dean of Fence", and espeically not one that is believed to be responsible for teaching.
You are the Aquaterra Branch Rapier Marshal - that is it. You are responsible for overseeing Rapier activities ithin the branch, authorizing local fighters, sponsoring/running local practices, reporting on the staus of Rapier within the area, etc, etc. But you are not responsible for teaching.
Dean of Fence is an OLD (like, 10+ years) position/concept that used to exist for Rapier in An Tir, which as I understand it, WAS used to denote the person who was teaching (and doing the marshal stuff). But this concept is no longer valid - and all Branch Rapier Marshals should ONLY be referred to as Branch Rapier Marshal.
Along those lines, I would like to request that everyone please work with your local branch to ensure that all listings for this office sow the title of "Rapier Marshal", instead of anything else, such as Dean of Fence, Master of Blades/Swords, etc .
My intent is to get the Kingdom Rapier Marshalate to be consistent across the Kingdom, not only in how the rules are being presented and enforced - but also in some of these more minor points.
Thank you for your assistance and understanding with this, I appreciate it!
Ramon Diaz de la Vega
deputy Kingdom Rapier Marshal
|
|
Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
|
|
|