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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 06/23/2006 7:42 PM |
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| By the way if anyone is willing to help marshal please let me know. |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 07/06/2006 4:13 PM |
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| Each unscarved? Does that mean there is nothing on Saturday for cadets, or am I misunderstanding? |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/07/2006 12:17 AM |
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Most likely Talentus edited his post after submitting it - and the thing was truncated a bit.
I upgraded to the new version of the forum SW to try and fix this - but it obviously did not. and added new issues (yay)
Looking into it |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 07/07/2006 11:55 AM |
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There is stuff for cadets. the way the tournament is being run is that each on scarved person will be matched with either a cadet or a white scarf. It is a modified cadet style tournament designed to help us get to know each other by having to wok together!  See you next week |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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KitH
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 07/07/2006 2:43 PM |
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| Does this mean that the people are fighting as pairs? |
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Kit Heinrichs
SCA: Christopher MacEveny, Cadet to Don Magnus von Bremen |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/07/2006 4:24 PM |
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Wok together?
Does that mean that we need to cook teriyaki? |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 07/07/2006 4:27 PM |
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I will probably available to marshal, as I don't typically do "gimmick" tournaments.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 07/07/2006 9:11 PM |
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| Yes for the cadet style tournament you will have to work in pairs. Not to gimmicky, and the tourney on sunday is the typical double elim tournament, byes are non destructive, double kills are. |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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KitH
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 07/08/2006 2:36 PM |
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| I'll probably marshal too. That kind of destroyed the point of the tournament. |
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Kit Heinrichs
SCA: Christopher MacEveny, Cadet to Don Magnus von Bremen |
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Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 07/09/2006 9:45 PM |
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| Just for clarification - are all bouts two-on-two (four people fighting each other), or do you just add our scores together at the end? |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 07/10/2006 7:33 AM |
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| 2 on 2. |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Mughain
The Meepiest!
Provost
Posts:76
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| 07/10/2006 3:34 PM |
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While I appreciate efforts to have some off the norm tournaments, I have to agree with Simon & Christopher, in that I'm disapointed that of the two tournaments planned for this Crown level event, that there is no Open Format tourney, instead, two gimmick tourneys have been inserted.
It has been an expected tradition for many many years to have at least an open tournament at crown level events, and often the prevailing reason some people will choose their vacation planning for events by. Its apparent that the choice to eliminate an expected format is removing some very good fencers. That's a shame.
As many know, White Scarves have traditionally used the open tournament for the evaluation of the progress of cadets, and an ability to evaluate the statistics in that progress. I personally use those scores as a litmus test on my progress. By combining scores from two fighters, the ability to use statistics in evaluation is eliminated, or skewed at best, unless the lists will still be keeping separate scores. (Which I humbly request be kept)
***
There seems to be a perception that when a Cadets Tourney is scheduled, that others are excluded if they haven't formally taken a cadet status with an OWS. I was fencing in Cadets tourneys from the first season I fenced (3 years before I became a cadet), as you only have to ask an OWS to sponsor you for the day.
Most OWS that I have spoken to are willing to sponsor most any fencer, you just have to ask. (The same happens with unbelted in a squire's tourney)
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HL Mughain inghean Donnghaille
Cheryl Glover
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Richard
Provost
Posts:84
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| 07/10/2006 4:00 PM |
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Hmmmm-- While I could support this format if it were in addition to the expected Open Tourney, i am disappointed with this being the only one of two tournaments scheduled for the weekend. My disappointement is centered around the expected use of the Open Tourney as the primary forum for the OWS community to view the fighting populace. Parings, while possibly entertaining and providing an opportunity to get to know your new "buddy", limit your ability to play your best game.
I would be very interested in hearing from some of those in the OWS community.
Do they have an expectation that this is one of their 4 best opportunities to view the community? |
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KitH
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 07/10/2006 4:15 PM |
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This is to clarify my thoughts on the point of the open tournament being destroyed.
First, we are recreating late 16th century Rapier combat. The Rapier is almost exclusively a dueling weapon used by civilians to settle their disputes. To the best of my knowledge, there is no documentation for group duels in which rapiers were used in this period. There were occasional brawls where the rapier came into play, but we cover that in war scenarios.
I use the traditional open tournament at crown events as a gauge as to how I am dueling against my peers. This is a test of skill. By holding the tournament as advertised, a large element of luck has been thrown into the mix by way of the random pairings. If I get paired with someone like Don Sebastien, Tora or Draven, odds are we’ll will do pretty well. If I’m paired with someone new to rapier, the chances are much slimmer.
Talentus, I think I understand what you are trying to accomplish. I think your propose could be better served through other means such as a social gathering. Sacrificing one of our few traditional tournaments will not serve that goal.
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Kit Heinrichs
SCA: Christopher MacEveny, Cadet to Don Magnus von Bremen |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 07/11/2006 7:10 AM |
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I can understand where you guys are coming from, but i disagree that it is as easy as you say it is to be sponsored into a cadets tourney.
Also the token tourney is in no way gimmicky, it is a standard double elimination tourney. No frills, no gimmicks just a standard double elimination tourney with a token as the prize. |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 07/11/2006 8:51 AM |
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To get into the old style Cadet Tourneys all you had to do was ask a WS.
As to the paired tourney, there was one of these September Crown 2002 if I remember correctly, and it was a lot of fun. However it didn't replace the standard Cadet Style, it was in addition too. For me, I am not so against being paired with someone, they probaby don't want to be paired with me though since I am attempting to put what I have been learning into practice and tend to lose a lot because of it. Add that to a nagging elbow injury which means no changing hands if I get armed in my sword arm adds up to a pretty dismal win record. |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:268
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| 07/11/2006 9:02 AM |
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Talentus, I disgree with your disagreement
Like Simon said, all you have to do is ask a WS. What's the worst that can happen? They might say no. So ask another one! I cannot imagine that someone who wants to enter a cadet tourney would be unable to find someone to sponsor them in.
Raoul
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 07/11/2006 9:21 AM |
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Right, but as has been my experience that WS's can sometimes be unapproachable if you don't know them or anything like that. Maybe its just me and i am shy, but i have a hard time going up to someone that i don't know, that is engaged in a converstaion with someone else, whom i also don't know, or many people i don't know and interrupting them to see if they will sponsor me, someone they don't know, in a tournament.
So my partial solution to this was to try and help people get to know one another so that in the future when we do run true cadet style tournaments (which i am not against at all) it is much easier for someone to approach a WS, who they now know, to be sponsored. |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/11/2006 10:36 AM |
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Holy crap. Damn thing ate my post. The beautiful and inspiring prose. The analogies and concise points that I brought up, the likes of which would have ended wars and hunger for eons. F#$% it. I will re-write it later - in a separate thread....
Talentus, I think that your partial solution is admirable, to be sure. Even more admirable is the fact that you have not only identified an area of improvement within the community, but you have made effort to actually do something about it. Thank you.
I would like to point out that it does feel to me as if you have implemented a "solution" with little to no input from any others in the community. This is not a bad thing, merely an observation, and something to consider, especially as you weigh some of the responses that this has elicited.
However, IMO, I feel that the solution that you have presented the Kingdom with is inherently flawed. There are a few reasons for this - but I will only talk about two right now:
- This format can only provide what you seem to be looking for if there are enough "scarfed" fighters available for pairing. Beyond that, there are more fighters w/o a "scarf" then there are WS. Also - there are some "unscarfed" fighters that could be seen as more skilled then some that are "scarfed".
- Additionally, as evidenced by responses in this thread, this disparity will be even more prelevant with the decrease in "scarfed" fighters. (and really, only a small portion of the total voices that I have been privy to have even responded here....)
- I am not seeing how randomly pairing up fighters as a "team" is intended to get people to be more comfortable with approaching others. Heck, there is no real requirement that they even need to talk ;)
Suggestion - let's go ahead and hold a cadet's tourney on Saturday morning. The attending OWS will be available (read: milling about) near the Lists Pavillion starting ~ 30 minutes prior to the opening of Rapier Lists, and will remain there until lists close. (most of us, at least...) We will be available for any fighter that wishes to be sponsored into the tournament. Sure, we may be talking with others, or to ourselves, or doing something like setting up Lists, schmoozing with loved ones, warming up, sleeping, or any number of random tasks. We will be doing other things. You can still get our attention, and when we are able to free ourselves from whatever lies at hand, we can talk.
Anyone that is worried about how to approach someone, or worried about offending another, should read the Knowne Worlde handbook - it provides a basic method of approaching someone in the SCA respectfully, how to get their attention, etc, etc.
I also highly reccomend that people not do approach any of the OWS "randomly". Be specific in what you are looking for; what you would like to get out of the relationship. Whether it is for a day, or longer, there is a relationship here, and there is something available for everyone involved. At the very least, choose who you approach based on some facet of this person that you respect, admire, fear, or just think is cool.
If a fighter cannot approach a member of the OWS for simple conversation, their skill on the field will never be able to get past a certain point - they will sit at that plateau for some time, wondering why they dont have a WS yet.... It shows in their fighting. It may not be concsiously present for the fighter, but they will always feel in their head that they could be better. I have seen it many times, and experienced it myself over a good portion of my own progression. Hesitation, timidity, self doubt (second guessing actions, etc), anger over "failures", etc. All symptoms. Of course, also symptoms of other "issues" as well. 
Courage is dong something that needs to be done, in spite of the clenching knot of fear in your gut. Without that courage I would be hard pressed to reccomend any such individual to the OWS....
BTW - where does our Kingdom Rapier Champion fit in this? He is not scarfed.
Cheers!
Don Ramon de la Vega
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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