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Basileus
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 01/01/2008 8:00 PM |
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What meaning does a red scarf have (if any) to the rapier community?
What should a red scarf mean to the community?
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Tora
Provost
Posts:101
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| 01/01/2008 9:40 PM |
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As I understand it, it means that you are the student to a white scarf, whose job it is to instruct you in the art of rapier as well as the other non-combative aspects considered important to the order so that you may one day don (pun completely intended) the white scarf yourself. That's the impression I have anyway.
As to your question of what it should mean to the community, well, I think to answer that you first have to answer what should the white scarf mean. |
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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Basileus
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 01/02/2008 6:23 AM |
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| I believe that to be a fair assessment and a accurate follow up question. |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:101
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Arffuidsson
Free Scholar
Posts:63
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| 01/03/2008 8:49 AM |
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Greetings,
While Tora did a wonderful job explaining what the Red Scarf is, there are some things I’d like to add.
The red scarf (or Cadet) means just as much, or as little you make of it. I know some will rise to the top, and possibly receive their kingdom's highest rapier based award, and others will stay in a comfortable situation with their mentor, never achieving much beyond their good relationship. This is true of squires, apprentices, and protégés.
The other thing to pay attention to is that; no matter how they are treated, it is not an official rank or award within the SCA. It is a formal agreement between two, or more, individuals. That’s it.
It all comes down to the individual and what they are willing to put into it.
I hope this helps!
In Service to the West,
Staffan Arffuidsson
Cadet to Michael of Castlekeep |
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Basileus
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 01/08/2008 8:00 PM |
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I agree that the red scarf is what you make of it, and it also appears that from my own personal experience and from what I have seen within the community over several years is that the red scarf has no significant meaning to the community in terms of authority or responsibility. Only that the person is a student to a whitescarf.
Perhaps a more pointed question is what meaning does the OWS place on redscarves? |
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GuilleminDeRouen
Free Scholar
Posts:30
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| 01/09/2008 9:15 AM |
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My old account died 
A red scarf, as mentioned above, is a personal relationship between two people as opposed to an award of some kind, and I therefore feel that a red scarf should mean little to the overall community.
Skill-wise, whether or not a particular fighter is red scarved should not make them seem any more or less intimidating to another fighter, as the red scarf carries no necessary prerequirement of skill. Most Dons require that their students reach a particular level before apprenticing them, but not all. In terms of authority and responsibility, some Dons expect their students to take on duties and responsibilities in addition to fighting (be it marshalling, organizing tournaments, or other activities), but again, not all do.
I assume it would be the same among the OWS. Since there is no universal prerequisite to becoming a Cadet, it's hard to evaluate what "meaning", if any, it has besides labelling someone as the student of another Don.
Sorry, general answer. But then, it was a general question.
Guillemin de Rouen
Rapier Champion and Provost of Avacal
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche |
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Arffuidsson
Free Scholar
Posts:63
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| 01/12/2008 8:13 PM |
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Greetings,
Basically, when you accept the relationship, you are telling everyone that you are on the White Scarf path. What that can do is act as an identifier to those interested in rapier combat. They would be able to inform the person you represent (your White Scarf), and anyone who is a White Scarf, your actions, both the good and the bad.
So, even though you might, or might not, be on the White Scarf watch list, you are still being watched. Spooky, isn’t it?
“…So be good for goodness sakes.”
Seriously though, if you are interested in fostering the relationship with a White Scarf, spend some time with them, and ask others about them before you ask them to help guide you along the path. Then, after you’ve made your decision (for or against), enjoy the ride!
In Service to the West,
Staffan Arffuidsson
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Basileus
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 01/13/2008 7:48 PM |
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| Yep it was an intentionally general question, so I was expecting a general answer. I wanted to get a feel for what others thought.
I do have a comment on this opinion:
"...is a personal relationship between two people as opposed to an award of some kind, and I therefore feel that a red scarf should mean little to the overall community.
Yes, the red scarf is a symbol of a relationship and not an award. So on that level it does not merit any more than "that person has made a commitment to learn". But I do feel that that relationship will eventually influence the community, so I feel the red scarf should have merit more responsibility and authority than it currently does.
Since the red scarves are working towards becoming a white scarves (who are leaders of the community) it makes sense to me to expect that when I see someone with a red scarf I can consider them a person who helps lead the community in an active way. This currently does not appear to be the case. There are some red scarves I know who are in leadership roles, however those are more related to the individual versus the red scarf.
The rest of the leadership is left to the white scarves and I would like to see that expectation of leadership become more ubiquitous amongst the community. I think to do that, the OWS would need to establish some agreed upon criteria when they consider someone for a red scarf; since they do not, red scarves do not inherit any responsibility for the community, only for their own learning. |
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Thorbjorn
Novice
Posts:9
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| 01/14/2008 5:22 PM |
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| For what it's worth, I've always figured I could expect more from a cadet, because a member of the White Scarf community felt they were worth putting a scarf on. I suppose, however, it all depends on the individual in the long run. |
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Basileus
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 01/15/2008 5:51 PM |
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| Very good points. I had not thought of it in that light. |
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Arffuidsson
Free Scholar
Posts:63
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| 01/16/2008 7:28 PM |
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Greetings,
I agree. Under the guidance of their WS, a cadet should take on extra responsibilities. But this is hard to regulate. After all, how many White Scarves are active enough to play a part in leading the community?
Here’s a question, why should a member of the Order of the White Scarf consider taking up responsibility, when it is not a part of the award?
http://www.antir.sca.org/Pubs/Laws/kingdomonly.pdf
(Article IV.C.4.c.1.d.)
The only thing that the award states is that the recipient has to have skill in rapier combat. That’s it. If that is the extent of their responsibilities, then why should one expect more? And, if that is the level required of a White Scarf, then what responsibilities would a cadet have, besides to excel in their fighting abilities?
Please understand that I am not trying to give a negative impression, but expounding on the capability for the lowest common denominator. I bet that if you look around there are several of the Order in your kingdom that go above and beyond those minimum requirements (no, this isn’t condescending, I just do not know many of your kingdom’s White Scarves personally). Those are the ones you should look to. Those WS have the cadets that should be responsible within the community. Other cadets who are responsible and active within the community, while their White Scarves are inactive, are individuals to look towards as well.
In Service to the West,
Staffan Arffuidsson |
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Thorbjorn
Novice
Posts:9
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| 01/19/2008 12:06 PM |
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I can only speak from the point of view of a cadet, but, I felt that once I had been given my red scarf, I was also handed the responsibility of representing my Don, as well as myself. I know that as a teacher, I feel responsible for my student, and that affects my behavior as well. We can not gauge our society by the lowest common denominator. We recreate the BEST of the Middle Ages. Part of the Dream is knowing our friends are capable of noble actions, and supporting them as best as we can.
my 2 cents worth,
Thorbjorn Askni |
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Arffuidsson
Free Scholar
Posts:63
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| 01/23/2008 5:47 PM |
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Greetings,
I agree with the representation in the relationship, and I have done my best to honor my White Scarf with my actions as well. As should all cadets.
My comment for the LCD is because our Society is welcoming to everyone, not because I thought less of others. And yes, we need to do our best to try to help people achieve the best that they can within the SCA.
Thanks for your input Thorbjorn!
In Service to the West,
Staffan Arffuidsson
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Andrew Williams
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 03/02/2008 11:23 PM |
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| Basileous ... it means we're brothers whether you like it or not. :-P |
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"I'm one of Lyall's boys..." |
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Murdoch
Novice
Posts:1
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| 03/09/2008 10:56 PM |
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Hello,
I believe the next evolution of this question would be "What does the red scarf mean to you?"
Besides, it's the only way i could answer the question and be truthful.
To me, the red scarf is both an honor and responsibility in and of itself. First, it says to me that somone has taken an interest in me, my fighting, and my conduct both inside and outside the Erik. Second, it means myself and my family will follow my White Scarf and his household in whatever direction he chooses. Third, it is an outward symbol that represents my quest to become better than i am, more than just who i am today. To become a leader of some kind, maybe not a pillar of the community, but at least someone whom others can turn to for advice, help, or just a big 'ole sattelite dish ear to vent into.
These are all things I aspire to, and i've only JUST started upon that path.
All of this is daunting to say the least. The trust that has been shown me by my White Scarf is flattering, and thrilling at the same time. No pressure.
I guess it's more of a romantic image of the scarf, harking more towards the Knight/Squire relationship in some ways. Too many books and movies in my lethargic youth. But If someone farther down this path than I takes an interest in my progress, an interest in my efforts, and an interest in my destination . . . who am I to refuse that offer of guidance.
And a Mentor is something i've searched for, for a long time.
Like i said, It's an honor to wear my Red Scarf, both inside and outside the Erik. Of course the minute i screw up and my White Scarf hears about it . . . I won't be so rosy cheeks then will i . . . he he he
Murdoch Sinclair
Cadet to Don Kieran Gunn
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Arffuidsson
Free Scholar
Posts:63
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| 03/11/2008 12:20 AM |
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Nice question!
It means quite a bit, actually.
First off is the tradition. I’ve lived in three kingdoms, and in each they have had cadets (though I believe East uses a different color than red for the cadets of OGRs). Being a part of a custom that was going before me and will continue after me is kind of inspiring. I feel I belong to something grater than the personal relationship with my White Scarf. Hence it was very inspiring to me when the West became a White Scarf kingdom and I received my cadet scarf from my White Scarf, Michael of Castle Keep. In addition, the Scarf had a tradition behind it. It was given to me through Michael from someone who helped him when he was originally in Ansteorra, Don Jeremy James Scurlock (who came out of isolation for the event that the West became a White Scarf kingdom. I had a great time meeting all of my White Scarf’s Ansteorran WS “Family”!).
On the personal level, it is a formalization of the relationship that Michael and I had been building. When the West’s award was based off of the Royal Guild of Defense, Michael was my Courtier to the Crown of the West (I know, I know. It’s a long name for an award. The alternate name was Guildmaster of Fence.). This was not a teacher-student system that the White Scarf and cadets follow, it was more like a head of a school and one of the student’s within the school hanging out together kind of thing (this is the quickest way I can explain it, honest).
Yep, becoming his cadet was a pretty good thing. Even when I’ve complained about him to others, I still feel that way. I have access to more of his time (he usually responds to my questions and comments rather fast), I get to needle him into playing more (he’s a bit of a recluse), and he has helped me with the mental aspects quite a bit.
Murdoch, I really like your “Outward Symbol” comment. It reflects how I feel in a way that is more concise than anything I have been able to say so far. Do you mind if I use it?
And, like your comment, I feel it is a position in where I am not only learning to fight better, I am becoming better at leading, teaching, and I have been introduced to people that I probably never would have met.
Thanks for the question!
In service to the West,
Staffan Arffuidsson
Cadet to Michael of Castle Keep |
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HelleFeuer
Novice
Posts:3
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| 09/22/2008 7:47 PM |
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I probably do not have very much room to speak here, being a new cadet and all (just before Sept Crown I became a cadet to Don Samuel Mctavish)
so what the red scarf means to everyone else or should mean is something I need to learn.
What the red scarf means to ME is an opportunity, one I have longed for for three years or more.
Since Rapier to me is all about the Art, The scarf means to me, an outward symbol of my dedication to the study, preservation, and advancement of a sport that is the reason I can walk still
My Don's (sounds weird to say) only commitment as far as I know is to be a GUIDE in that study, since no one person can teach everything that is needed.
if I am off base here at all, someone please say so, but it just boils down to the fact that the scarf is a symbol of wanting to learn more, be it skill or knowledge or both.
The White scarf if you ask me should represent Skill, Knowledge, and HONOR above all else,
Thats just my two cents
hope its worth at least a penny
Thanks
Ulrich |
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