Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 09/20/2006 9:26 PM |
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| Will there be some kingdom-wide instruction on how to safely grasp a blade? How long is "prolonged wrestling over a grasped blade"? I'm concerned about getting some uniformity on how this is practiced. The I assume that the grasping hand will be lost if the blade moves in relation to it (like a normal cut), but the one time I had my blade grasped, it was such a tight grip that I couldn't get my blade free no matter how hard I pulled. Is this acceptable? Would that be realistic with the end of a sharp weapon? What will the standards be? |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 09/21/2006 9:17 AM |
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| its been removed again. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 09/21/2006 5:51 PM |
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Well that does make it easier.  |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/21/2006 9:23 PM |
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Put it back! Common sense dictates if she's yanked it, the hand is gone.
Damn - I was excited about that step in the right direction. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 09/22/2006 10:18 AM |
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Just not so sure about the usefulness of this one, sorry. Thats why it keeps going back and forth.
Tell me - how do you think it would be different than what we allow now? |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/22/2006 12:21 PM |
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I think it would change how we fence, just like allowing me to push an elbow would change how we fence. If that option is in play, people would fence in a fashion closer to what is historically accurate.
It's not a huge deal - in wma we can blade grasp and it's not like we do it all the time, but you have to stay cognizant of the possibility. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 09/22/2006 2:41 PM |
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So - think about the Society restrictions regarding how blade grasping can be used. Or go look it up in one of the older revisions of the rules update. Now, think about what is allowed in An Tir rapier right now.
Now tell me how the two definintions are in any ways dissimilar.
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/23/2006 4:49 PM |
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Yes, alright I see your point - given that any movement whatsoever by the blade (lateral, pushing or drawing) results in a lost hand, chances are you wouldn't want to close your fingers around it anyway.
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Utgar the Mad
Provost
Posts:104
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| 10/03/2006 1:52 PM |
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there is a bigger problem here and that is grasping the blade at or near the tip.... if this were a real Rapier it would be very likely that you couldnt control it much without seriouse damage to the hand Valid period technique but unlikely. Unfortunately we have something they didnt have back then, Blunt (non sharp edges) blades and a nice fat little knob at the end to anchor too. grabbing one of our current simulators near the tip makes it almost impossible for the sword holder to dislodge the sword grabbers grip. pushing wont do it the blade will simply flex and not overcome the friction of dull blade against leather glove..... pulling wont do it since the likelyhood is that the tip will pull free before sliding through the grip of dull blade and rubber stopper against leather glove..... this puts grasping in a very interesting position. In one case possible badly bent blade and dead, in the other best case is you pull your tip off and get a hold to reset... neither is optimal and both seem to me alot like a good way to use the rules to gain an very unfair advantage
IF anytime you grasped the blade and were unable to kill your opponent within a set amount of time (very short as in seconds) you lose your hand I would see that as "Simulating" the actuality of this sort of combat until we actually get grappling (IE grabbing the opponents hilt/sword/arm and pulling them off their feet or onto your weapon)
My personal feeling on this are if Ive moved close enough for you to actually grab my sword Im likey inside your tip and getting closer by the milisecond, and its not the sword you should be worried about but the dagger in my other hand So put it in pull it out doesnt matter lets just not get overly concerned if its historically valid or not since the reality is almost impossible to simulate witout injury or damaged equipment of some sort. |
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Lessingham
Provost
Posts:117
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| 10/03/2006 9:50 PM |
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To grasp blades properly you do so at the medium or closer to the strong of the blade. The problem I have seen in the SCA is people think grasping the tip is OK.
Utgar if I get the chance tograb a blade properly you will not be able to injur my hand by pushing or pulling even with a real blade. Especially if I am wearing a glove. It takes a violent twisting of the blade combined with a push or pull to dislodge a blade properly grasped. And then I think anyone who starts making a habit of grabbing tips needs to be soundly thrashed over the head in public with a wet pool noodle.
While we are at it - how about allowing the grabbing of hilts. Is that gonna fly with society? |
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"The Will is the captain general of our army and our fortress."
1587 F. Ghisliero pg. 108 |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 10/03/2006 10:05 PM |
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Grabbing hilts, as much as I would love to see it, is a quick and easy way to injure someone's hand. Grab the top of their guard and pull towards you and slightly down - classic disarm, and potentially destructive.
I'd like to be able to put my hand ON my opponent's guard tho - no need to grab it at that point as you have so much leverage.
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:268
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| 10/04/2006 8:26 AM |
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I agree that grabbing the hilt is potentially unsafe, but I would like to be able to place a hand on it.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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darkwyvern
Novice
Posts:8
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| 10/06/2006 4:31 PM |
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It seems that a gentle fencer using correct technique can either grasp the hilt or momentarily hold the blade to preform an action, but I see why there would be a need to ask that people do not attempt either technique.
They both are things you have to be calm and controlled to do, & the other person also needs to not do something spastic to hurt the person doing the technique. I've seen it done both well and very not-well. the fencer who is in control is usually the one who remains uninjured, but I would not attempt anything with that risk against someone who I did not know.
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 10/07/2006 5:28 PM |
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| Placing a hand on the hilt (as well as the arm up to a certain point) is allowed in C&T... |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 10/07/2006 11:03 PM |
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I'm curious as to the reasoning behind limiting it to C&T only.
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Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 10/19/2006 10:19 PM |
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Posted By Lessingham on 10-03-2006 9:50 PM
To grasp blades properly you do so at the medium or closer to the strong of the blade. The problem I have seen in the SCA is people think grasping the tip is OK.
Utgar if I get the chance tograb a blade properly you will not be able to injur my hand by pushing or pulling even with a real blade. Especially if I am wearing a glove. It takes a violent twisting of the blade combined with a push or pull to dislodge a blade properly grasped. And then I think anyone who starts making a habit of grabbing tips needs to be soundly thrashed over the head in public with a wet pool noodle.
While we are at it - how about allowing the grabbing of hilts. Is that gonna fly with society?
And that, I feel, is what needs to be specified and taught if we're going to enact this - grasping the lower part of the blade makes sense and seems safe enough, but what's to stop someone from grabbing the tip and bracing against the blunt, potentially bending the weakest part of the blade, just as Utgar described? I'm not against the idea of grasping, but I've fenced enough yahoos to worry about how this is going to play out.
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 12/24/2006 1:51 AM |
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| I'm not a fan of blade grasping because I feel that it could end up being a nice trixy way to substitute for skill. As for blocking a sword with the hand, up to the hilt and probably below the elbow, i'm fine with. I'd say open hand and no grasping, because in a close fight where you CAN touch the hilt or forearm, it would be a very natural defense to take. As far as I am concerned, once we start grabbing, it becomes a wrestling match, since the sword fight is probaby over after that. |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 01/24/2007 3:02 PM |
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| I think we can be successful as teachers and marshals ensuring we don't see wrestling matches. |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 01/24/2007 10:27 PM |
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| I understand Blade Grasping has come back into effect with the new rules but have not got the final version myself yet. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 02/04/2007 7:05 PM |
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| It would help me a lot in my teaching if I had some training myself. I was trained from the start to never close my hand on a blade. I have no idea how to teach our students safe and effective techniques against blade grasping. |
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