Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 07/24/2006 6:49 PM |
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Section 3.9.1 requires both rigid elbows and knees.
I'd prefer to have the rigid knees changed to highly recommended.
This would bring us into alignment with corporate rules. Unless that changed while I wasn't lookin' at the corporate level.
Craig/Dormouse |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:268
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| 07/24/2006 9:15 PM |
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Actually, corporate rules only require elbow pads. There is no requirement for rigid material on elbows.
Just sayin' 
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/25/2006 6:27 AM |
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Yep, what we have in the rules right now for C&T is higher than Society. Since I did not play as much in the Sidesword experiment I relied heavily on Balthasar when putting this stuff into place.
Ironically, it is still less armor requirements then Sir Daniel (deputy Earl Marshal) seems to be thinking we need for this. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Luciano
Provost
Posts:143
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| 07/25/2006 2:38 PM |
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Yeah, but he also thinks flat snaps are a good idea.
Luciano |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 07/25/2006 6:05 PM |
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Personally, I could care less what Sir Daniel thinks. 
He hasn't participated in the activity, and has only poor guesswork, and a rather poor paradigm to draw on.
The Cut and Thrust experiment had a very good safety record and I think that speaks for itself.
Dormouse |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 07/26/2006 12:36 PM |
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*shrug*
We've been doing percussive blows since we started AD, and there have been way, way less injuries in the time since we started than I have seen in one average heavy practice.
We usually fight in shorts and t-shirts, gorget, mask and gloves. Sometimes a cup. ;) |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 07/26/2006 12:48 PM |
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Sir Dan, BTW, wrote this on armourarchive:
Once you translate for "heavy-talk" it seems a rather good job was done of impressing him. Nice!
..............
"Third, last weekend at An Tir Coronation, the Rapier guys did a demo of the new experimental Cut and Thrust rules.
HRM Amalric looked on, and myself a few other knights also watched with great interest.
This has the potential to really take the SCA to the next level, and really opened my eyes.
They started out at about 75% speed and 10% power compared to heavy fighting. I eventually encouraged them to go 'full speed, but only 20% force'. As they warmed up to it, I began to see the glimmer of *real* combat. Not SCA stick-monkey fu, not two guys with car antennas poking at each others hands, but *combat*.
I still think they were too lightly armoured (skate-board elbows and knees) but I have to tell you, it got my blood going. The way you get when watching two serious ducal level fighters go at it in a counted blow tourney.
With rigid protection covering all body parts where the bones come to the skin (skull, elbows, knees, neck, ribs, - Thanks Rustam, excellent dividing line) I could see this rising fast in popularityat SCA events.
Make no mistake, it's much more dangerous. My first instinct is to limit it to white belts and white scarves only. (except the current guy in charge is a Cadet-albeit a highly skilled one)
But I would highly encourage anyone in the SCA to check out this new stuff. I am considering getting a rig together and giving it a try soon. (or maybe just modifying my heavy suit) " |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 07/26/2006 2:24 PM |
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I don't agree with Sir Dan's comment about limiting participation, as I don't see where being a White Belt or White Scarf would make any difference to someone being safe to take part. But then again some one needs to officially define "participate".
I think the point he might be missing is that unlike rapier this requires plenty of practice/training to be at the level of the group that did the demo.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 07/26/2006 4:18 PM |
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Quoting Sir Daniel:
"They started out at about 75% speed and 10% power compared to heavy fighting. I eventually encouraged them to go 'full speed, but only 20% force'. As they warmed up to it, I began to see the glimmer of *real* combat. Not SCA stick-monkey fu, not two guys with car antennas poking at each others hands, but *combat*.
I still think they were too lightly armoured (skate-board elbows and knees) but I have to tell you, it got my blood going. The way you get when watching two serious ducal level fighters go at it in a counted blow tourney.
With rigid protection covering all body parts where the bones come to the skin (skull, elbows, knees, neck, ribs, - Thanks Rustam, excellent dividing line) I could see this rising fast in popularityat SCA events.
Make no mistake, it's much more dangerous. My first instinct is to limit it to white belts and white scarves only. (except the current guy in charge is a Cadet-albeit a highly skilled one)
But I would highly encourage anyone in the SCA to check out this new stuff. I am considering getting a rig together and giving it a try soon. (or maybe just modifying my heavy suit) "
Wotta tool! While I agree that participation should be limited... The notion that Knights (!!??!!) and WS, as a blanket authorization, is at the least predjucial, at the most reckless negligence (I can't believe this prepsterious notion came from someone who is supposed to be in a position of responsibility.).
Authorization should be limited at first to the participnats in the C & T experiment as they have the experience and proof of control. From there we have a solid core to build from...
"Rigid protection covering all body parts where the bones come to the skin..." Jeez, why don't we just go with Michelin-man suits??? We've got the saftey credentials that it's not necessary....
The scary thing is he's in a position of authority....
Craig |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 07/26/2006 5:00 PM |
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I think it's a simple issue of the heavy community assuming we want to apply their level of authorization. Most of them haven't been through a rapier authorization, so they have no idea how stringent even our low-level standard is compared to those.
But now we are off-topic...except to re-iterate that less armour and more required training is good for me. I'd like to see a seperate training *requirement* for C&T... |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/26/2006 7:17 PM |
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I think it is more like: He is using the assumption that in order for a sword to actually be useful, you need to strike with as much force as Heavy fighters use. He is mising the point that in heavy combat, you actually need to use more force than would realistically be required to perform the same action with a real sword.
Its that lack of edge.
What I am more worried about is the comment from His Majesty, something along the lines of: ..."I feel that if someone is interested in playing with this type of combat, they should just put come out to the heavy field...."
In the end, though, what does this mean. That C&T rules as we want them will not be approved until 12th Night? Possibly. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/26/2006 7:19 PM |
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And the first year of C&T will have restricted participation. Basically, the only people who can authorize someone to participate is the Kingdom C&T deputy, and any "regional" deputies he appoints - and the KRM.
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 07/26/2006 7:38 PM |
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Justin wrote:
"And the first year of C&T will have restricted participation. Basically, the only people who can authorize someone to participate is the Kingdom C&T deputy, and any "regional" deputies he appoints - and the KRM."
Ok...you still haven't defined "participate". I got that you and Chrestien will be the only authorizing marshals.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/26/2006 9:33 PM |
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How about - everyone but....Luciano.
I am thinking restricted to people with a clue. And for lack of better definition of that, original sidesword experiement participants, and those interested which Crestien or I are comfortable with.
Anyone can practice though, nothing we can do about that. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Luciano
Provost
Posts:143
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| 07/26/2006 9:50 PM |
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Hey now, I don't think I can get behind that authorization restriction.
I think that Ramon has it right with the problem here. Sir Daniel sees this through the lens of heavy combat, and that is a distorted lens. The if you aren't going all out you aren't doing it right lens.
We were originally going as fast as we needed to. We didn't slow it down for the demo. And while we could have gone faster, there really wasn't a need. The actions we were doing would have cut through what we intended them to.
Luciano
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 07/27/2006 7:28 AM |
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I think part of the problem is the heavies don't see it as something that has to be learned. I think it would be fabulous if we got 100 people that were really interested in learning the how and the why of the techniques and not just out there to do SCA Heavy combat with steel.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/09/2006 11:07 AM |
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Albert - I pretty much agree with your perceptions of Sir Dan.
As a clarification, when he and I were talking about this stuff, he was pretty specific about his personal preference of restricting to the the Chivalry and OWS at first. He did not say that it would be a mandate, just that it was something he would do.
Hopefully people can catch that distinction ;) |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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